A couple of years ago, a friend asked me for advice on dressing down his normal suit-and-tie wardrobe.
Like many men, he wore suits (in worsted wool) to the office, and jeans or chinos at the weekend.
The office was becoming more casual, however, and he wasn’t sure how to dress down without becoming too casual and unprofessional.
My first tip to him was: flannel.
Most men today will have never worn flannel trousers, let alone a flannel suit. Suits for them are worsted wool – wool that has been combed and pressed, made sleek and sharp.
‘Woollens’, without that treatment, are alien, yet it is they that populate much of this gap between suits and jeans. And their king is flannel.
Flannel trousers – classically in grey but also in navy and other colours – are clearly smart. Yet their fuzzy (milled) texture separates them from normal suit trousers.
They can be worn with a sports jacket to the office – for that dress-down option – or at the weekend with knitwear, for a nice lunch or gallery visit, perhaps.
They are so perfect at this in-between role that readers often ask me what the summer equivalent is – when it finally becomes too warm for flannel.
Unfortunately I don’t think there is one; neither linen nor the various cottons quite fit the bill.
My friend now has three pairs of flannels, in two shades of grey and one navy.
And is considering a fourth.
There is of course, to confuse things, both worsted and woollen flannel.
Flannel can be made with worsted yarn (which uses generally longer fibres, and is then combed) or a normal woollen.
What generally defines a flannel is the milling process, where the cloth is beaten about and the fibres broken, producing that fuzzy effect.
A worsted flannel reacts differently to the milling and will have less texture.
It is generally used for making lighter-weight versions of flannel. (As woollens have shorter fibres and therefore can’t be spun into fine – and so lightweight – yarn.)
But to most enthusiasts of the stuff, worsted flannel is not worth bothering with. It doesn’t have most of the body and texture that is the whole appeal of flannel.
Woollens as a larger group include most other things that don’t look like a classic worsted suit: tweeds, cashmere jackets, cloths for overcoats and so on.
Although flannel is best defined by the milling process, it is also (like most cloths) in practice defined by its use.
So a milled woollen cloth used for a coat is not normally called a flannel. Flannel most generally refers to a milled cloth (worsted or woollen) used for trousers or suits.
This is actually a fairly clean and universal definition for a cloth. Others aren’t so easy.
For example, ‘serge’ is used to refer to a certain type of trouser, but is strictly speaking just the weave (the name of a 2×2 twill in French).
You can use that type of weave in any material, but serge has come to mean a woollen cloth, with a visible 2×2 twill, that is slightly milled. (There are gradations of milling too – did I mention that?)
To a certain extent, recommendations as to the ‘best’ cloth also begin to merge into its definition.
For example, we have said that the flannel enthusiast will insist that worsted flannel is not really flannel. For good, practical reasons around body and texture.
He may then suggest that real flannel should be of a certain weight – again, with good reason.
Flannels that aren’t heavy and closely set are lovely to wear, but rather impractical. They lose their crease quickly; they bag at the knees; they can even rip when wet.
This often puts off the flannel novice. After a few wears, they appear shapeless and unattractive, and he is unlikely to be able to press them effectively.
An argument can be made, therefore, that a flannel should really be 13oz or more – even 15oz. It is only at that point that it can be worn a few times without having to be re-pressed.
In general, English flannels tend to be closer set (more yarns, denser, in the warp and weft) and use thicker yarn. As a result they tend to be heavier.
Italian flannels tend the opposite way, sometimes searching for style at the expense of substance.
If you have no experience and are picking a flannel, an English one is therefore a safer bet.
But there are many exceptions on both sides – particularly given the Italian reverence for English cloth.
Finally, grey flannels tend to be a melange of different shades (one reason they are so attractive).
This melange can be achieved in different ways, in the fibre or yarn; but it’s a minor difference not worth going into here. Every technical piece must have its limits.
Flannel is one of the great pleasures of classic menswear, and one that communicates readily to the novice – hence my recommendation to my friend.
And while there are many different variations, I would suggest the important thing to focus on is weight.
Get a 13oz flannel, 11oz at worst – particularly in trousers. Your legs don’t have as much blood flow as your upper body and don’t get hot nearly as easily. Your creases will thank you.
A very nice and simple guide for a noob like me. Thanks Simon.
Great post!
I‘ve come to conclusion that the summerversion of Flannel for me is grey and cream/tan crispaire. As grey Flannel they work with almost any Sportcoat. Grey Flannel in Winter and Grey Crispaire in Summer paired with all forms of sportcoats and a blue oxfordshirt became a bit of an uniform of mine.
Absolutely agree. Same with me. I have 2 pairs of tan crispaire trousers and I am very happy with them.
Hi Simon,
Great article! I once had a flannel suit and loved the matte look. Indeed it’s just different from all the worsted suits.
One aspect i was looking for in this article, yet didn’t find is the durability. The suit I had wasn’t expensive, quite lightweight, and slimfit. As a dutchman I ride a bike to work. The result was that my pants lasted only two months (!)
Do you have recomendations? I would love a grey flannel for the office, but cannot skip the bikeride. And changing clothes in the office isn’t really an option.
So basically what i’m asking is this: Is there a more hardwearing flannel out there?
Flannel is never going to be that hard wearing. Heavier will be better, but hardier wools like twills will be better
I find my trousers wear out quite fast due to biking regardless of being flanell, worsted, cotton or denim. Since I moved further away from the office, I don’t ride my bicycle to work anymore, but I’m always intrigued by what the dutch and the danes do about this issue, since they all seem to bike every day in normal clothes.
I have a leather Brooks seat, which is more narrow in the part that sits between the legs. I then use a plastic seat cover which eliminates part of the friction. I avoid cycling in tight pants as they wear out the quickest. This is especially true for jeans which are stiffer.
Bear in mind too that it is moisture which is the big enemy. Once wool becomes wet it loses a huge amount of its integrity. Cycling slower and sweating less makes a big difference
AJ, would it be feasible to switch out just the trousers? I cycle to work every day and wear a pair of jeans (from Rapha) for the ride. We don’t have proper changing facilities at my office, but it’s pretty easy to swap out a pair of trousers in the bathroom.
I also commute in Rapha jeans (albeit with Rapha merino on top too)
I like flannel because it can be dressed down,perhaps with a fine knit roll neck sweater but I also find that a grey worsted suit with a pick and pick weave also achieves the same result with a roll neck.You could also choose a multi-colured grey cloth exemplified by Reid & Taylor or their modern equivalents.I had the latter point because R&T suiting cloth of 1970s vintage is not easy to find.What do you think Simon?
Hard to say without seeing the example – I don’t tend to like the 70s styles but it might be nice
I think it is very sad that Fox Brothers did their Queens Award Flannel bunch in 230g. They have a wonderful variety of colours in a weight that is virtually useless as it is too light for any possible use.
For trousers 230g flannel is unsuitable. This makes it unsuitable for a suit. And for an odd jacket it is also not the best choice as it will not drape as beautifully as a heavier cloth. At the same time it would wear too hot in the summer (for example compared to a 300g fresco) as the flannel does not allow good air circulation.
I really just don’t get it why they did this bunch in this useless weight.
HRISTO — I had an unlined sport coat with no shoulder pads made from this fabric. Believe it or not, it is very comfortable in the summer and hangs and wears well. Even on long flights it does not wrinkle very much. I was pleasantly surprised. However, I still prefer Minnis fresco for the summer but this was a nice change up.
Dear Simon,
As ever enlightening and inspiring.
You asked what might be the summer equivalent of flannel.
Might it be Fresco? Also a wool material with a texture that dials the formality down a notch?
The problem it’s not much of a notch. It’s too formal. To most people it will just look like suit trousers still
What about a cotton canvas, or canvas linen mix?
Canvas would be good, if it was a heavy enough
I think this is the right approach. Luxire carries some 11oz linen-cotton canvas, presumably from a no-name mill, and it’s phenomenal. It holds a crease and resists wrinkles well (for linen) and is comfortable at any temperature (well, up to 102, at least—that’s as high as it got where I live).
Thanks David
I think this is an appropriate time to pose the question how long would a pair of flannel trousers last ? Or for that matter any item trousers, suit , jacket ?
And I won’t let you use the easy get out “depends how you wear and treat them”. so lets assume a flannel suit worn 8 hours a day , twice a week for 4 months ?
What I’m trying to get at is cost per wear .
Bespoke / MTM / quality RTW items often appear expensive but the normal refrain to this is that “in the long run etc etc”
I think now is a time to get some quantifiable clarity.
It isnt quantifiable, get a dozen pairs of trousers made in a different fabric and irrespective of if they are RTW, MTO or bespoke you’ll get a dozen different lifespans even if you wear them in the same way.
I’ve had trousers made from 12-13oz fabrics that have worn out from thigh rub in 2 years and others that are still going strong after 5 years of heavy use. You’ve then other considerations like getting shiny spots, baggy knees etc which again depends on fabrics and cut etc.
It also depends on the shape of your legs, your gait, and your walking habits. And sometimes whether a cloth is cut straight or on the bias.
Great guide, thanks. Grey flannels in a range of tones and weights have proven very useful, especially since the temperature dropped in the UK. I have even wondered about having some jeans made up in flannel.
Do you know how your friend uses the navy flannel odd trousers? I could see them being a bit less useful.
Finally I would underscore your point about lightweight Italian flannels: I have had lightweight Loro Piana flannel practically dissolve under fairly modest use, and will err on the side of extra weight in the future.
Yes, navy flannel is less useful, but ok with knitwear, just less so with jackets
I actually got a pair of navy flannels (maybe more of a royal blue shade rather than dark navy) from Cerrato and it actually ended up being almost as useful as my grey flannels. Because of their texture, they still work nicely with Suede, be it with a nice pair of brown chukka and/or a suede blouson. Still great for that restaurant outing in the evening where you want something a bit smarter and with an interesting texture. I know Simon that you are not necessarily a big fan of variation of blues but I do find that my navy flannel trousers work quite nicely with a light blue shirt, denim “shacket” I have made with W&S (so another layer which is smart but not too formal and with a very nice contrast on top of the flannel). A mid-grey or charcoal outerwear also works nicely on top. That being said, that one needs to be well aware and confident about colour and texture combinations so it is subtle and nice ! 🙂
Cheers
M
M i agree with you. I have a Cherquers by H&S royal blue trousers, not actually a flannel because of 1% cashmere and 1% silver mink, that is a great odd pair! It goes good with cashmere kintwear also.
The 98% Super 160 ones? Do you find they are not fragile or shiny?
What are your thoughts on navy flannel for a suit? I’ve been told in the past to avoid navy and stick to grey
I’d generally prefer grey, but certainly navy can be lovely too. A nice way to add a.little interest to a business suit
The blue chalk stripe looks nice, but wouldn’t you expect pattern matching on the jetting?
Some tailors do, some don’t. Anderson & Sheppard does, for example. Panico, in the picture, doesn’t
Hi Simon,
Thanks for this very instructive post! Flannel is a lovely fabric indeed!
A follow up to your reply: In general, how do you estimate the importance of pattern matching at the level of the pockets? For jackets that haven’t been made bespoke, it usually seems hardly achievable, especially when alterations come into play.
I do have a very nice Glen Check wool jacket, which has undergone at least two alterations over the years, but I still wear it without bothering that much with its mismatching pattern at the level of the pockets.
John
Grey is a bit boring. All subjective but Ive always found blue to be more flattering. Can wear the blue flannel jacket with grey flannels too (and thus prolong life of your suit trouser at the same time 🙂 )
On another note, Simon what cloth books would you recommend? As other posters have mentioned a lot of flannel bunches are in the 11-12oz range. They pitch it right in the middle I think to appeal to as many people as possible. I’ve not seen a 15oz flannel anywhere.
Are your flannel suits in worsted or woolen? Thanks
Woollen. Always woollen. Did you read the distinction in the post?
Wish this article had come out a few months ago as I just recently received delivery of a pair of flannels in 310g; sounds like I’m going to need to treat them very carefully!
And yes, the lack of a flannel equivalent for the summer is a real shame. Like many men, I’ve turned to Fresco as the best alternative, but it doesn’t look quite so casual, and it’s also a bit scratchy and uncomfortable against the skin. Is Crispaire a better option?
Also, I seem to recall reading somewhere that flannel used to be considered a summer fabric, which I find a bit hard to believe. Did men in the ’20s not sweat…?
Yes, white/cream flannel was the classic summer trouser. They also wore three piece suits year round and never took their jackets off. I have to think they were fine because they were conditioned at such a young age or something like that.
Global warming’s the culprit!!
I ordered last week a flannel trouser from Marco Cerrato. Cloth was a lovely mid grey in 11 oz.
Would you suggest to go for 13oz instead? I live in a Mediterranean climate so it might be too much except for 1 or 2 months a year.
13oz would still be ok most of the year
I’ve been looking for an alternative to denim jeans beside chinos. I came across some flannel pants in a 5 pocket style in navy that fit the bill. They appear to be jeans, but look just different enough to draw a double take. The pair I found are quite light and I’m already looking for something a little heavier.
Great article, but I have a question relating to this passage:
“For example, ‘serge’ is used to refer to a certain type of trouser, but is strictly speaking just the weave (the name of a 2×2 twill in French).
You can use that type of weave in any material, but serge has come to mean a woollen cloth, with a visible 2×2 twill, that is slightly milled. (There are gradations of milling too – did I mention that?)”
I’ve only understood serge to mean a worsted 2×2 twill cloth, famously used in military uniforms. Can you explain more about the woollen variety and its usage as a type of trousers?
Hi Matt.
The term “serge” has many different meanings – over time and in different parts of the industry.
The use you’re referring to is the most historical, and is a cloth originally made of silk, a blend of wool and silk, or pure wool, having the face either singed or sheared in order to clearly show the diagonal of the weave and having quite a clean/shiny look. This definition was widely used during 2nd world war to identify the type of cloth used to make uniform for the army. Where this wool, it was worsted.
More recently and more widely, it’s been more used to describe a slightly milled cloth where the milling “grade” is kept low in order to show the diagonal of the weave – this would be a woollen. Here it’s arguable that this definition really refers to the weave rather than the type of finish.
Most commonly of all, serge is used today just as the French name for twill.
Hope that’s helpful
Simon
Simon, could you recommend somewhere to get RTW flannel trousers on the lower end of the budget scale?
Hackett and Ralph Lauren would be the first places I’d look
don’t forget Drakes. I’m very happy with my pair:
https://www.drakes.com/trousers/grey-wool-trousers
Ah yes of course, thanks
Try Dapper Classics. They often have 25% discounts. Great trousers.
Thank you
I just touched a flannel from FT di Delfino today. It was so soft and silky that I thought it was 100% cashmere. It was actually pure wool but at 295g I guess I’d better not use it for a suit, maybe a jacket. Which leads me to wonder whether many flannel bespoke suits are made: at €4000+ a suit, one expect a decent lifetime, regardless of one’s wealth.
Second, I pleased to see that I am not the only one considering flannel jeans. I saw some sold by a tailor but maybe it was cotton flannel. Generally, which cloths (woolen, weight, density,..) may qualify for a jeans cut & wear? You may not like the idea, but I thought some PoW, pik&pick or dogtooth might work well.
I would really avoid it. It looks neither casual nor smart, and not a happy medium in between. In any of these cloths they’re just going to look like tailored trousers with an odd pocket configuration
Ok. Would a slim chino cut be more suitable with such fabrics then ?
Yes, that would be a better option – less the cut and more the detailing, eg pockets
Summer equivalent for flannel?
If the desideratum is simply a fabric of in-between formality, there’re lots of options imo. Consider cooler fibers (e.g. silk, bamboo) spun into uneven yarns (e.g. slub) woven loosely (e.g. hopsack, basketweave) with a melange of different colors (as with flannel for suits, different shades of gray > all other color mixes).
I don’t actually think the specific texture of flannel is appropriate for warmer climates. I always sweat looking at guys in brushed fabrics or with naps of any kind in the summer. My wont’s crispy in the summer and cozy in the winter. Though if you insist, linen flannel is a thing.
Thanks Ben – I think those summer suggestions might be a little too casual for a flannel equivalent, but perhaps colour would help there
Simon,
A great article.
I always have a 13oz or 15 oz flannel suit in my wardrobe.
Also, on the trouser front the A&S Haberdashery have a great selection – I bought a fabulous grey pair last week to wear with an old navy cashmere/silk navy blazer that was savaged by my dog, rewoven by Zegna and is now been relaunched with new horn buttons from Bernstein & Banleys – that’s sustainable dressing for you!
With regards to wear, anybody who rides a bike in flannel trousers should seek urgent help! They are for occasional wear. That said, like linen, a level of creasing is not completely the enemy and the darker the cloth, the less they show and if they are the correct weight, you wear them occasionally and you take care of them they will last.
Simon, have you got details of the chalk stripe in the visual ? And will A&S have it ?
Regards,
David
No, sorry, it was made by Panico as part of the Tailoring Symposium, but I don’t have details on the cloth.
https://www.permanentstyle.com/2015/06/tailoring-symposium-the-outfits.html
Weren’t all the symposium cloths VBC, if I remember correctly? If so – could potentially be 404.598/3, 340g – or at least that would probably be the current equivalent.
I think that might even be the same bunch as Simon’s recent Panico commission in grey flannel…
Could you do a flannel black tie? Or is that just mental
You could, but I wouldn’t. You want something sharp for that, not fuzzy. Or velvet, but only in the jacket
My friend has a very handsome 1930s midnight blue flannel dinner jacket with black gross grain lapels and braiding. I think it is quite handsome. It even has its original waistcoat to match the lapels. It is…Singular! I might wilt in such a garment, but it is handsome (sans the darts). The cut is slightly structured but sloped and roped shouldered SB peak lapelled with high rise double pleated trousers.
Simon
Sorry to post here but nto sure where else. I would like to get my first good blazer. Probably nazy, in a wool with a little bit of texture (maybe a cashmere blend??) in soft construction. I don’t want to spend more thant 6/700£. Is there any hope for me?
Not that I can help with I’m afraid. You’re looking at mid-market ready made tailoring there and it’s not something I really cover
How much is someone like Graham Browne for something like this, or Whitcomb and Shaftesbury? Would they be alright at making a soft construction?
I wouldn’t recommend it from either, no
I posted a suggestion that your reader would do well to try Steed MTM as a great solution for his blazer but you must have missed it as it hasn’t appeared.
Weird – don’t know what happened to that one. Consider it suggested though….
Go to suitsupply and look for a jort model. Fully canvassed and with patch pockets.
I’d try Richard James and Hackett. Both have served me well and usually have a range of navy blazers. Hope that helps
Thank you., all of these comments appreciated
Pal Zileri outlet at Bicester Village worked well for me. pick the right time and you might get a bargain
Try Eidos or Sartorio if you like Neapolitan style. Good prices available on eBay.
Forgot to mention Caruso… also try eBay
Boglioli. Mr Porter.
https://www.mrporter.com/en-gb/mens/boglioli/unstructured-textured-virgin-wool-and-cotton-blend-blazer/888583?ppv=2
Fantastic article Simon; I’m a recent convert to flannel so this was very informative. Just thinking about some of the comments above re. cycling – I wondered if there could be a future article on cloth durability (apologies if this is contained in another article). I’d love to get your opinion and experience on which materials are the harder-wearing. I’m a primary school teacher by day, and so my clothes get a bit of a thrashing (!).
Nice idea, thanks
I’d like to add my support for this suggested topic. Thanks!
For anyone looking for heavier weight flannel cloth, try Huddersfield Fine Worsteds. I’ve had some trousers made up in their flannel and I’m over the moon!
https://shop.hfwltd.com/collection/47
nice looking cloth….who did you use to make them up?
Sartoria Vergallo. Very happy with the trousers. I’ve just bought another length to make up into trousers.
Simon,
Very Informative article, do you plan to write something on tweed as well? I would like to learn more on what makes it hardwearing but meanwhile why some tweeds are suitable as suit but some are not.
Yes, we have it in our plan!
Thanks
Hi Simon – I am new the bespoke scene and I have recently spent hours reading your blog. It is amazing – thank you and keep it up!
Flannel is an superb fabric – I have recently commissioned a pair of mid-grey flannel trousers (following your suggestion). I could not be happier, it is so comfortable and very versatile. I chose to go for a 12/13 oz mid-grey VBC flannel cloth. I live in a tropical country and I find it perfectly bearable. I might even consider going heavier for the next commission to get even better drape and durability.
My tailor was telling me that VBC flannels are great value for money. I went through the latest Fox flannels book and their cloth definitively feels more premium (also much more expensive) – prime choice for a suit. How would you rank heavy weight (480g) Zignone flannels compared to other mills?
I’m so pleased J, thank you. If anything specific was useful, do let me know – it all helps keep the site focused.
It sounds like you’ve started along a very good line with your flannels so far. It’s definitely worth trying Fox, but I’m afraid I don’t have any experience with Zignone so can’t help there
I saw a worsted « fleece » wool Pow fabric at Piacenza1733. Although worsted, the PoW design was pleasantly looking blur. Any idea what a fleece wool is exactly when it comes to tailoring?
Hello Simon,
I am considering purchasing a flannel suit, likely in cloth of at least 13oz, yet I am wondering during what time of the year I can wear it. I get hot easier than others on average so I’m a bit scared I won’t be able to wear it for half the year, while I really want it to be versatile. Perhaps you could give your thoughts on this?
Hi Tim,
It’s hard to judge as I’d be guessing on what you would find comfortable, and what you would get used to. However, flannel is essentially a cold-weather material and you’re not going to be able to wear it all year. Part of the joy but also the cost of getting more into tailoring is that materials are not suited to every season.
If you’re concerned, perhaps go for an 11oz but no less.
Simon
I’m a passionate lover of heavy worsted flannels. I had recently had two suits out of two cuts of the same flannel (but two differnt taylors, for the sake of variety). Navy chalk-striped flannel from Huddersfield archives, 15,5 oz approx. A weight nowadays used for overcoats. The result is simply stunning. The texture and the shapes of the suits made of such kind of cloth are absolutely a world apart. It’s really a shame those cloths are virtually disappeared.
Hi Simon I see in a VBC post that you are having a grey worsted flannel suit made. Was curious given your comments in the flannel article didn’t seem to endorse the fabric. Just wanted to double check as I value your opinion. Thanks in advance.
Hi – that sounds like a typo on my part, as I’m not. Can you point me to the post?
Hi Simon
You mentioned in the section above between the photos of the hanging trousers and you getting measured for your suit that flannel enthusiasts aren’t ‘bothered with worsted flannel’. but clearly that isn’t your view. Appreciate the clarification.
Hi KK. No you have it wrong – that is my view, I don’t like worsted flannel.
Where did I say I was having a suit made in worsted flannel?
Simon
Hi Simon I just emailed you a VBC Insta photo saying that the Panico suit you were having made was in their worsted flannel….sorry for all the back and forth..FYI the suit does look beautiful.
Thanks, I’ll check it out. That must have been a mistake – it’s not a worsted flannel, it’s woollen
Hi Simon,
Planning on commissioning my second bespoke suit, a grey flannel, after my navy hopsack. I asked my tailor for a 13oz flannel but he has English flannel swatches in 11oz and 14.5oz. I am leaning toward 14.5oz but fear it will be too warm. In your experience is there a big difference between 13oz and 14.5oz?
By the way I purchased the PS Oxford cloth and had a great shirt made by Simone Abbarchi. Great product again! Keep them coming.
Thanks
I’d stick with 11oz probably…
And great to hear on the Oxford!
What is the heaviest weight flannel you’d want to make into a suit? I found a beautiful Fox Brothers flannel that’s 17/18oz that I’d like to get made into a suit for winter wear. Is that too heavy for a full suit?
No it would be nice, though personally I’d stick to around 15
Hi Simon,
I really like your work and I value your opinion on men’s style.
I am trying to rebuild my wardrobe and I would like my next sports coat to be a tan/beige/light brown – like our friend [attached]. I love how flannel feels but I am not sure if flannel is the right fabric for a sport coat [compared to tweed]. I live in a temperate climate so I can wear flannel at least 2/3rd of the year.
• What do you think of a 270gm Tan flannel fabric for a sport coat?
Thanks and keep up the good work!
Dhiren
Thanks Dhiren.
I would generally avoid flannel for a sports coat – it doesn’t have quite enough texture. Better to go for flannel, tweed or something with equal texture
check the wording of your reply Simon..viz….’….generally avoid flannel…’ ‘Better to go flannel…’
Thanks John. Sorry, should have been ‘Better to go for cashmere, tweed…’
Hi Simon,
One of my commissions for this year will be a pair of bespoke flannel trousers, to be worn on weekends.
My favorite fabric is a lovely mid grey, with a 300 gr weight. Is it too light or delicate?
Thanks very much
It will be quite light, yes. Still wearable, but I’d go with heavier if you can
Hi Simon can flannel fabrics be used for overcoats as well. Because of the weight is quite close to the weight of an overcoat. Thank you
They could, but generally you want wools that aren’t milled like flannel and so are a little more solid
Hi Simon,
I find that my flannel trousers always catch my over-the-calf socks, and thus making my trousers look very short when I stand up. For that reason I have to wear mid-calf socks with flannel trousers. Is there any solution so that I can wear flannel trousers and OTC socks together without looking silly with short trousers?
Many thanks!
Well, there are obvious things like having cotton socks rather than wool, so there’s less friction. But ultimately no, you just need a slightly wider leg trouser
Hello Simon,
you wrote a superb article!
I’ve recently chosen a cloth for my new (first) bespoke suit (mainly for business purposes) and it is a navy worsted flannel from Scabal. Dark blue colour (close to the third picture in your article), slightly glossy and with the nap. At about 10,5 oz which should be great for all seasons except summer.
As I read the article and comments, you are not a friend of worsted flannel. I do understand the arguments and agree that woollen flannel is even more appealing.
But I wonder if it is some kind of “rule” among bespoke suits connoisseurs (not just flannel enthusiasts) that worsted flannel should be avoided (as perhaps something that tries to bridge both categories but fails in their eyes) or a personal preference?
I have to say that I like the fact, that worsted flannel is more durable (like worsted wool, I hope) and also have at least some amount of the nap which I want to have on my suit (I consider the “fuzzy (milled) texture” of flannel much more appealing than that of plain worsted wool without the nap). It’s seems to me a great compromise.
But since I have no substantial experience and I want to make a smart investment with my first suit, I’d like to ask you (with your knowledge of taste and tradition) if I should reconsider my choice of cloth.
Thank you very much for your answer.
J.
Hi John. You’re right, these kinds of things can become ‘rules’ too easily. The important thing is to understand why so many people think it is the right thing to do, and then work out whether you care about those reasons or not. So with worsted flannel, the reason people dislike it is that it doesn’t really have the same nap surface or spongey feel of normal flannel. And people go for worsted flannel because they want a lighter weight of flannel, when actually everyone could wear heavier weights if they wanted. So, nothing wrong with your choice, but consider whether you care about those reasons or not. Personally, I’d recommend going for true flannel first, but that’s just me.
Hi Simon,
I agree with you that there are better options than flannel for SCs but would like to hear your thoughts on the 370g Pecora Nera winter weight jacketing, thanks
It’s very nice – I’ve seen it made up with Saman Amel. Would make a nice jacket
I see – so Pecora Nera would be an exception to the rule? It is doubly attractive to me as I am very hard wearing on my clothes making cashmere an unpractical luxury leaving just tweed for me in the fall and winter.
There may be different weaves in pecora negra (I believe that’s just the wool) but what I’ve seen has rather more twill texture than a normal flannel
Hi simon,
You’re right even the “plain” options in PC have some type of texture or pattern like twill. Thanks!
Hi Simon,
I am planning to commission a casual jacket. What are your thoughts on blue flannel blouson with stand up collar and blue flannel shawl collar (like the one from Anderson Sheppard)?
Thanks
Hi. A blouson with a shawl collar? Or are those two different jackets you’re talking about?
Thank you for the reply. Those are two different jackets. Just would like to hear your thoughts these two different style (make up with blue flannel) Thank you!
Ah, I see. For the blouson,personally I’d use cashmere, not flannel. And a dark blue, a navy.
On the jacket, that would be very nice but quite a showy, unusual jacket.
That is very helpful. Do you think the shawl collar would be a bit too formal for casual wear? Also, would you suggest light grey over navy for the two jackets? Thank you once again.
Yes, I think it would be too formal – redolent of evening wear like a velvet jacket or tuxedo.
No, I’d say navy would be better than light grey in general. It would likely be more versatile.
Would it still be too formal if I go for a shawl collar cardigan with style details like the one from Anderson and Sheppard but in flannel? I was thinking a cardigan, even with a shawl collar, is on the casual side and pair well with jeans etc. Thanks.
Yes, a cardigan would be more casual. But in that case I wouldn’t use a tailoring material like flannel. Use knitted wool or cashmere.
Brilliant post on flannel.
I intend to commission a “3 season” ( Autumn, Winter, Spring) jacket & trousers combination in a versatile and durable fabric as an alternative to a navy blue all-rounder lounge suit.
I am a jacket and trouser person who loves the versatility of separates.
2 questions.
1. What type of cloth would you recommend for a more durable alternative to flannel in a midweight and mid- grey colour , say 12-14oz fabric for TROUSERS ?
2. Same question but for a durable mid- dark navy JACKET?
Summer would for me be as above in Smith Woolens Finmeresco or Gilt Edge fresco, or H&S Crispaire for the Trousers and H&S Mesh Blazer or Scabal Finest Jacketings for a jacket.
What guidance can you offer me in this topic?
Many Thanks
Lindsay
Can you please correct above comment.
Smiths should be Smith Woolens Finmeresco or Gilt Edge fresco.
Thanks again.
Lindsay
Done
Hi Lindsay,
The answer to point 1 will largely depend on the style you want. So, for example, a material like cavalry twill will be very hard wearing – but the look is slightly harder-finished, slightly smarter than flannel. Then there are cottons, corduroy etc. Personally, if you want the look of flannel, I’d stick with that. In 14oz from the likes of Fox, they will be very durable.
Question 2 again depends on the style – something smarter like cashmere, or escorial if you want it still luxurious but harder wearing; or something more casual like tweed; in between would a woollen, perhaps something with a little pattern in it like a herringbone
Hope that’s a help
Hi Simon. I hope you are doing well. Thanks for this informative article. I will be commissioning 2 flannel trousers within the next couple of weeks. It will be my first time to have flannel trousers. One will be mid-grey. For the second, what is your opinion on tan or sand color? Are they good choices for flannel trousers? And would they go well with a charcoal tweed jacket? Thanks!
I wouldn’t have flannel in those colours to be honest, at least if you don’t also have dark olive, dark brown and charcoal. The first two would be great with a charcoal tweed jacket.
how about cream (for flannels)?
A lovely material, just a little dandy or showy. Nice worn simply, for example with a navy or charcoal crew neck
Hi Simon, just picking up on this. Does this mean olive or dark brown might be the second colour flannel after mid-grey you’d recommend? Am thinking particularly in the context of building on the capsule wardrobe you outlined a while back. Thanks.
Yes, I think so
In regards to the weight of flannel, does worsted vs woollen make any difference?
Not a lot, the difference between worsted and woollen itself is much larger
Hi Simon,
Sorry, to clarify what I meant to ask: can you get away with flannel trousers in a lighter weight, say 10oz, if they are worsted rather than woollen or do the same issues exist?
You can get away with a little lighter weight, yes, but you also lose most of what’s nice about flannel – purely by being worsted. There is much less of the softness and texture that makes flannel appealing
Hi Simon,
Stoffa offer wool flannel (moss) trousers in pearl grey weighing 350g, do you think these would be a great option and practical? Also which fabric would you recommend for a pearl grey flannel from the English bunch mills?
Thanks
Rupesh
I’m sure it would be good Rupesh, yes. I don’t have any in that colour, so can’t directly recommend. Fox would generally be my default though
Hi Rupesh,
I have two pairs of trousers in Stoffa’s moss flannel, though not in pearl grey. I have the walnut and dark indigo. I can highly recommend them. They’re excellent value for money and wear well in my experience.
Hi RT
Thank you for your recommendation, I am due to receive my first pair from Stoffa in Basketweave, dark indigo colour. Another question is doe the flannel trousers hold shape given the good weight.
Also Simon, you had a pair of Stoffa trousers or even more by now, hence you were impressed with their fitting and managed to achieve the drape as well. Would you say MTM can also achieve the correct drape and fit as bespoke to an extent?
Largely yes, though it depends a little on your body shape.
Hi Rupesh, I have two pairs of Stoffa’s flannel trousers and can absolutely vouch for them. They hand very nicely and are as wrinkle-resistant as you can hope for in a flannel.
Rupesh, from another Rupesh, I have the flannels from Stoffa too. They are nice, but the cloth is thinner than its weight may suggest. I think that’s because they as they explained they are a pressed flannel. They therefore feel light and airy which fits with the rest of Stoffas aesthetic. They would work with light Italian tailoring better. They have shape but as you move they do sway around if that makes sense. Its more casual in style which is what I think Agyesh is going for however if you want a classical trouser I would personally go somewhere else.
Hi Simon.
I have several beautiful samples of Fox Heritage 17/18oz Flannel swatches. Obviously a sturdy and durable Flannel.
I don’t even have a ‘First Suit’ / Jacket commissioned… that would be a in mid weight navy worsted cloth.
Would this traditional very heavy weight flannel make a good durable winter suit, allowing for modern central heating or would it be way too warm and heavy. Perhaps this could one day be my second or a later commission. I think this flannel would make a striking double brested suit/jacket in the hands of a good Savile row tailor e. g. Anderson & Sheppard.
What is your thoughts on this beautiful Heritage flannel bunch from Fox?
Many thanks
Lindsay
It’s beautiful cloth indeed, but I wouldn’t really recommend it for an early commission. Something from Fox in a 13oz would be much more wearable more of the time. Particularly if cut double breasted
Many thanks for your prompt reply. That helps a lot.
Lindsay
Hi Simon,
I am from a tropical island and I love Flannel trousers and our winters is similar to British summer.
What would you recommend as weight if I have to wear flannel trousers in summer (British summer)?
Thanks
To be honest, I wouldn’t. You’d need to go for worsted flannel, and at that point most of the joy of flannel is gone. Sorry. Try to revel in linen instead!
What is your opinion about a navy doeskin blazer? Such a jacket was often used in the earlier James Bond movies paired with grey flannel trousers.
It can be nice – a little bit of the feeling of cashmere in the finish, but usually 100% wool
Hi Simon,
I too have been considering a Navy doeskin blazer for colder months and because in general I run cold. I have felt a navy doeskin blazer and liked it, but how is that cloth classified? Is it a worsted? A woolen? I’ve never seen it mentioned as a group of anything just by itself. What are details of doeskin?
Second, how would that blazer pair with some mid gray flannel trousers?
Thanks again.
It’s a woollen, with a brushed finish that gives it softness.
It is nice, but personally I’d prefer cashmere or, if that were too expensive, camel hair. I’d prefer that luxe feel in the fibre rather than just a finish, if that makes sense. It’s not a very rational view though.
It would go well with grey flannels, like any navy woollen
Would you pair a grey cashmere sweater with a grey flannel trouser e.g. Charcoal grey sweater and light to mid-grey flannel trousers and vice versa?
Would you wear your Luca Faloni nocciola brown sweater with grey flannel trousers?
What grey tone do you find most versatile for knitwear? Maybe mid-grey?
Besides navy what is your favourite colour with grey flannel trousers?
Sorry for so many questions at once.
No worries:
– No I wouldn’t, unless there were always something over the top, like a jacket
– Only if the contrast were great enough, so it would have to be charcoal grey probably
– Yes, mid-grey
– Cream, then dark green
Would you wear navy knitwear to charcoal grey trousers?
Yes. Nice to have some contrast elsewhere, eg white shirt
Hi Simon, great content! I’ve just read a few of your articles on flannel trousers and you’ve convinced me that maybe I should invest in one (currently only have cotton and linen trousers). I have a few questions on choosing my first flannel trousers. I live in a year-round hot and humid country and rains pretty often here.
1) What type of flannel trousers should I get? and what weight should I be aiming for?
2) How should I take care of the flannel trousers? I’m assuming that it is made of 100% wool and I should not wash it in the washing machine. So just dry clean a couple of times a year like my suits and brush regularly?
3) You mentioned that it may rip when it is wet, knowing that it rains pretty regularly here, should that be a point of concern and how to prevent it?
4) How does flannel trousers compare to fresco trousers?
Hey Ian,
If you live in a hot and humid country, you might find that flannels aren’t great for the hotter half of the year, as they’re largely cold-weather trousers. But that might be fine.
1) I’d aim for around 11oz mid-grey flannel
2) Yes, just like a suit. Brush, press, and dry clean as rarely as possible
3) That will only really be a problem if you do things like cycle in them. Normal walking, sitting etc would all be fine
4) They are both wool, but fresco is deliberately made for warmer weather – it twists the wool to make it retain its shape despite being quite open in weave. Flannel is the winter equivalent. It is brushed to make it a little warmer, as well as producing an attractive effect
Thanks for the reply. A few follow-up questions,
1) Can flannel trousers be machine wash and/or hand wash?
2) If fresco is the summer equivalent of flannel trousers, what type of fresco trousers would you recommend getting for their first? Any specific weight and colour?
3) Is the care and maintenance of fresco trousers the same as flannel trousers?
4) And since fresco trousers are also made of wool, I’m assuming that it will rip when it’s wet if I cycle in them.
1) No. No dress trousers can be machine or hand-washed generally, even in cotton, because of the waistband and the way it is made. But wool trousers like this should never be anything by dry cleaned also, unless they specifically say they’re in machine washable wool.
2) Mid-grey, probably around 9-10 oz. See the guide here on high-twist trousers like fresco.
Thank-you for the article Simon!! I was wondering if you had any recommendations of where to get the best quintessential RTW charcoal flannel trousers for someone just getting into menswear? Thanks!
Hi Al,
It’s a good question. You’d think most menswear brands would have them, but they go in and out of stock with people quite quickly.
Drake’s do have some, as do Anglo-Italian. Those are the two I’d recommend.
Hi Simon, you’ve commented before that “wool flannel” is not the same as “woolen spun flannel”. Can you explain the difference and which is sturdier?
Between the Huddersfield wool flannel and Harrison’s woolen spun flannel I’m looking at, the Huddersfield seems sturdier but not as beautiful in color and touch.
I don’t think I did make that distinction – do you mean the difference between woollen and worsted?
Hmm no, I don’t mean the difference between woolen and worsted. It was your comment on the green cotton trousers post: “Ignore the name. And no, wool flannel doesn’t mean woollen flannel. Worsted is short for worsted wool[…]”
The point I’m making in that comment is that ‘wool’ is different to ‘woollen’.
‘Wool’ just means the fibre it’s made of, like cashmere, cotton, linen etc.
Then, woollen and worsted are both types of wool cloth. Most fine suitings are worsted; anything fluffier or hairier is woollen (eg tweed).
Flannel comes in both woollen and worsted. But the former is the traditional one, and the one that most people would say is real flannel – worsted flannel is just a way to try and make flannel lighter.
I hope that’s clear? (Ignore the word ‘spun’ in your previous comment)
Yes, that’s clear thanks. I was just confused by the swatch labels. So any labels that say Woollen spun just mean woolen?
Yes
Hi Simon.
What weight would you recommend for a flannel trouser that is wearable in temperatures between approximately plus 10 and minus 10 degree celsius?
More than 13 oz? I quickly freeze in the winter.
If you don’t have many trousers, then I’d stick with 13, but if you do, or are used to heavier fabrics, then yes go to 15oz.
However, after about 5 degrees, the weight won’t make a huge difference. I’d recommend wool over the calf socks, and perhaps thermal underwear – or at least merino underwear – at that point
Dear Simon,
Have you ever had a suit made in the fox 18/19 oz flannel. I am considering it for a proper winter suit as it would hopefully be considerably warmer than my 13 oz worsteds. Should the weight worry me? Generally I run cold and don’t mind heavier cloth (I consider my 13oz to be fairly lightweight).
Kind regards and hope you are doing well,
Alex N.
I haven’t, no, though I have had trousers in that weight.
If you consider 13oz to be lightweight, then I think you would be fine.
But if in any doubt, and you can find a colour you like, there’s nothing wrong with going for 15 or 17oz – the difference won’t be that big.
I think it probably also depends a little on how you wear your jackets. Eg, if you wear them all day inside, the weight will matter more.
What is your favourite colour for a business flannel suit and why? I think mid-grey, charcoal and navy all have their own particular appeal.
True.
I think it depends on how conservative the office was. If everyone wore dark suits and no one wore flannel, I’d go for navy or charcoal to be on the safe side. But if there was a little more leeway than that, I’d always go for mid-grey. It’s such a beautiful colour.
Hi Simon, do you find 15oz or 18oz flannel trousers too hot to wear indoors? How do you find your 18 oz Fox Flannel trousers in terms of how it feels when worn and how it has aged?
They’ve aged well, but I would go for 13 or 15 if the colour and texture was similar. But no, I can wear both of them indoors easily
Hi Simon! I’m glad I found this old article. Thank you for the excellent information. I was thinking about having a charcoal flannel suit made. I’m leaning towards double-breasted with a chalk stripe pattern in 15oz English flannel. Do you think a chalk stripe works like that? Also, around what temperatures would 15oz be the most comfortable for wearing? Thanks, again!
It does, it would look very cool. But it would also stand out a lot, and look rather unusual. I don’t know where you would plan to wear it, but be aware it would be quite a showy suit.
15oz is heavy. In most countries you wouldn’t want to wear it for half the year.
Thank you, Simon! I’m in Pennsylvania in the US. Cold in the winters, but not Arctic cold. Maybe I’ll look at the 12 oz fabric instead.
I’ve narrowed down my fabric choices to a 350g flannel from Hardy Minnis and one of the same weight from VBC. Would you recommend one over the other? Are they comparable? Any quick thoughts? Thanks so much!
They will be similar, but often the VBC ones are a little softer and hold their line less. Having said that, VBC also makes the flannel for some English bunches, so it may even be exactly the same cloth.
Hello Simon,
I have a cloth issue: I am a student, part-timing at an MTM clothier in MO, USA: cold, often lengthy winters. Mid-Grey Flannels are a logical next step in my wardrobe.
I was a bit discouraged by the guide apropos what is available to me at the shop, and in fact anywhere. The heaviest flannels/woolens we have in the proper color (Mid-grey) are 360 gram Scabal Flannels, around 11 oz. It’s a considerable investment, and durability and low maintenance, through their relationship to value – are critical criteria for me.
1) Do you think this fabric will wear to relatively quickly, and lose shape?
2) What mills/suppliers can I go to to find something of more substance?
3) Do you think I would be as well served by a charcoal woolen in terms of wardrobe flexibility (we have a 480 g Scabal cloth i’ve considered. We also have an H&S 560g in charcoal or cream)
4) What type of fabric and weight would be your second choice to take the place of a mid-grey flannel trouser?
5) Bonus) You lean away from navy separate trousers. What about in a navy corduroy?
Hey. Happy to help if I can.
1) I haven’t tried it, but it might do yes. It’s a little bit light in weight and European flannels like those from Scabal do tend to prioritise soft feel over shape and wear.
2) Fox Brothers would be my top recommendation.
3) A mid-grey would be better, but not by a lot. If you can’t get a mid-grey, don’t feel bad about having to go for charcoal.
4) Perhaps a dark-brown or dark-green flannel
5) I’d avoid navy cord if I were you. I’d go for grey navy above it, or dark-brown cord
Hi Simon, I am deciding on commissioning a pair of cream flannel trousers and I liked the texture in the Drapers book made by VBC. The weight is 340g, 11oz. Do you think it would be sufficient for London? Or would you recommend the going heavier like Fox Brothers 13-14 oz?
I think that should be fine. The heavier would have a little more character and body, but you might also find they were too warm for warmer months
Hello Simon,
How does flannel trousers handle when it’s raining or snowing? What precautions do I have to take after the trousers have been wet?You mentioned on an article that flannel trousers should be flat front and slim cut but I can’t find nowhere this type,only single pleated ,for eg at Trunk and The Rake. Can these trousers be worn in a casual settings with a M 65 jacket or a bomber jacket? Can a peacoat made from melton wool handle in the same situations,like the one from Private White?
Thanks
Quite a few questions there Michael!
– Flannel is not great in the rain or snow. It will lose shape and need to be pressed/ironed. When they’ve been wet, just leave them hanging to dry somewhere (not over a radiator) and press them when they’re dry
– Flannels don’t have to be in that style, it’s just what I personally prefer. It’s up to you which you prefer. Anglo-Italian does some nice ones, with a single pleat.
– Flannels are just about OK with those more casual outerwear styles. They’re towards the smart end of what works, so just keep that in mind.
– Yes, melton wool is pretty good in the snow and rain. Again, just make you sure you hand it to dry somewhere when you get home, on a hanger, away from a radiator etc
Up to what approximate temperature can standard flannel trousers (~11-13oz) be worn?
How many months per year do you wear flannels?
It depends on a number of things – some people just wear hotter than others. But I wear them up to 17 or 18 degrees easily
Hi Simon,
It had recently come to my attention that I was not aware that people used oz/sqm as a measurement and had always assumed everyone was on the same page with it being oz/sq-yard. This actually stemmed from your post on the coat cloth weights while I was eyeing the raglan coat collab from private whiteVC.
On the coat cloth weight post you had also listed GSM which cleared much up for me. However per above, flannel is recommended at 13oz or above, I just want to confirm you’re referring to about 360 GSM or above? Thanks.
Yes I am.
The bigger issue though, is not yard v metre, but linear metre (metre of the cloth) or square metre. That’s where it gets a little confusing
Thanks Simon. Yes I do wish we can standardize or at least always include the unit type.
So Simon, do most mills report in grams per square meters (gsm)? Usually just grs used in swatches…
Thanks for all the information.
Usually per square metre. But I wouldn’t worry too much about this. I know it seems like a big difference, but a couple of ounces in either direction is not going to make a huge difference – particularly as there are other aspects of the cloth (eg the openness of the weave, the finish) that will be factors in any consideration of it as well.
And your suggestions in oz are in oz/square meter? Sorry for the noob question.
Yes. And no worries.
Simon, do you have any suggestions for a purveyor of the type of heavy English flannel trousers that you’ve recommended in this post? Coincidentally, I’ve just been giving a great deal of thought to recreating my first–and long lost–grey herringbone blazer bought in college and would like some well made charcoal flannel trousers to complete things. An excess of weight will not be an issue in Chicago. Thanks for an informative article.
Hi Chris,
No, sorry. I think most flannel RTW out there is lighter – though I’m not sure what weight the Anglo-Italian ones are. Worth checking
S
Thanks for the useful article. What are you thoughts on wearing brown shoes with charcoal flannel trousers?
Fine if the shoes are a very-dark brown, so as dark or darker than the trousers
Hi Simon, what are your thoughts on using the EThomas 15oz 90% wool, 10% cashmere woollen flannel fabric for trousers (mid-grey)? Will they bag or hold a crease and drape ok? Do you know much about how its texture and how it’ll feel?
I don’t, I’m afraid, but I would always avoid cashmere in trousers if possible. It’s not worth sacrificing the softness and lack of shape for a small extra softness
Hi Simon, what are your thoughts on using the 14.5oz mid-grey Minnis woollen flannel (510032) for trousers? How do you find its colour, texture, feel and ability to hold a crease and not bag? Thanks!
I haven’t had trousers made out of it, so I can’t say I’m afraid. My personal recommendation would be the 13oz Fox though
Thanks Simon. I’ve read that a little bit of cashmere in trousers like 10% just adds softness without taking away from durability, especially when the fabric is already quite heavy. Do you have thoughts on this?
It’s not going to be a big effect either way, but I’m not talking about the durability, just the hang, the drape of the trouser.
Hi Simon, how do you line your woollen flannel trousers? Is it too uncomfortable to have them unlined?
There’s an article coming on lining next week. But I have all my trousers apart from summer linen ones half lined in the front. It’s not uncomfortable most of the time if they’re unlined, but they hang more easily, wear slower, and bag less if lined like that
Do you usually have flannel trousers fully lined? I like the look and drape of flannel trousers but they are very irritating on my skin (I don’t have any skin conditions).
No, just half lined in the front, but then I don’t find flannel irritating at all.
I have had flannels fully lined, but it is a pain when pressing them, and it does make them warmer.
Hi Simon, could you provide the fabric codes of your favourite mid-grey Fox Flannel at 13oz for trousers?
Sure – CBT5 A1285/22
Hi Simon,
I’ve recently had a pair of flannel trousers made in the 13oz Fox mid-grey flannel you mention above. It’s a lovely deep grey colour but I find that the tone is rather warm which makes it excellent to pair with a dark brown Valstar but less so with a navy jacket where the combination looks slightly off. I was wondering if you have found the same thing in your experience and if it is something to be mindful of when putting an outfit together?
Hi Teo,
Interesting, yes the Fox does have a slightly different cast. To be honest I’ve found it fine with navy jackets though. Is it a touch better if the shirt is blue, rather than white for example? Though I realise that is still rather limiting
I also think it looks okay but certainly would have benefitted from a slightly colder tone. I find it works best with the striped PS oxford – the combo of light blue and the slightly creamy, warm white being very complementary. The light blue PS oxford also works but to a lesser extent in my opinion.
Interesting, thanks Teo
Hi Simon
Other than Fox Flannel, do you know any other books that have (quality) 13oz or heavier woollen flannel in classic greys?
What are your thoughts on light grey and charcoal flannel trousers for work? Is the former too casual? Is the latter difficult to pair with knitwear?
Thanks!
Yes, Smith’s is good. Keep an eye out for whether it’s woven in Italy or England. That’s a decent rule of thumb for how robust it is. Aim for English, and don’t assume just because it’s an English bunch, that it’s woven in England
Hi Simon, at what temperature do you find it too hot to wear your 13oz Fox Flannel trousers? Thanks for your help.
Slightly cooler than the whipcords, eg 14-16
Hi Simon,
I have read several of your articles regarding what colours you recommend and my question is for flannel, the most versatile colour would be mid-grey as it partners well with Navy, Oatmeal or Brown sport jackets. However, would a navy/ink blue/ brown flannel trousers be useful? Also what colour sport jackets would these pair with if any as I appreciate the limited versatility.
Dark navy is great without a jacket – with a jacket it’s more limiting. See this post for views there
I love dark brown, and it goes with a range of lighter-coloured jackets, most obviously greys. The only issues there are shoes to wear with it. You would need to like black sometimes as a shoe option there.
The other great colour is dark olive.
Simon,
Upon reading your woolen flannel trouser advice, I’ve created my wish list.
Originally, Fox Vintage Ecru (light tan/cream) was my 3rd… then replaced with dark olive.
Will Fox eventually carry olive in this weight?
Cheers,
Robert
Sounds great. I don’t know on the olive though I’m afraid
Hello Simon. I’m in the process of building my own personal wardrobe for formal and tailored trousers I’m considering flannel. I’ll be wearing it with oiled tanned waxed and roughout leather Red Wing boots. I’m also looking at canvas, denim and corduroy as bottoms to compliment my shoes and my workwear look. As tops I’m looking at waxed, tweed and flannel jackets and suits. What would you suggest in shirts to go with these bottoms options I have mentioned above? Could you be kind enough to suggest anything else as options for trousers, since my shoes are oiled tanned waxed and roughout leather, I’m looking for texture in my overall balance of my look that’s overall complimenting.
I wouldn’t wear flannels with those kind of boots, personally. They’re too smart. A lot of corduroys would be too.
I’d stick with canvas and denim, and wools other than flannel if you can find hardier ones. Which aren’t really offered in tailoring bunches.
As to shirts, I’d look to oxfords first, then brushed cottons like old flannel shirts.
Finally, flannel isn’t great for jackets. Avoid it in favour of other wools and tweed.
Thank you Simon for your time. I really value your feedback. Thanks for helping me. Do you know, suggest and recommend any good tailors in India? Also if you could suggest a couple of good budget tailors in London I could connect with?
I can’t really help on either count Amit. I don’t know anyone in India, and I don’t use or cover any tailors in London below £2000 or so
Hello Simon. I’m putting together the Barbour Lutz Waxed Cotton Jacket (Olive) and PS White Oxford – shirt. I’ll be pairing that with a Canvas Chino (Khaki) from USA with Cording’s Navy Silk Knitted Tie and Red Wing Boots. That would be my Winter–Workwear staple look that I’m considering. I picked these items as I have no access to quality tailoring at this point in time in India and want to dress up informal–smart for Christmas and other family events I would be attending this Fall/Winter. I wanted to know your thoughts, especially with the tie I’ve chosen. Also if you have any other considerations or suggestions?
Hey Amit,
It sounds nice, but without the tie.
The other clothes are all quite casual, and I think the tie could be out of place. It’s more casual than smart/casual
Thank you Simon. I’m really looking forward to your PS Oxford Shirt – white. After all my research, I settled for this one as I would like to associate with someone like you who always give advice, have such an comprehensive knowledge and infuse all that experience and expertise in your clothes and come up with quality products. You’re my go–to person.
That’s very kind Amit, thank you
Hi Simon,
Have you had olive flannels made before? I couldn’t find any in the fox bunch and I had some Italian olive before but felt quite flimsy. All I could find to the commission was something from Minnis.
Thanks
Yes I have – and a suit. The flannel used in this suit is wonderful.
Thanks, Simon. You are a good egg.
Hmmm, no luck with Dark Olive flannel at Fox – and hesitant with other books. Would you consider Dark Olive cords (e.g., Brisbane Moss 8 wale/550g) as an alternative for Dark Olive flannel?
Yes, that could be great too
Good afternoon Mr Crompton. What are your thoughts on this particular cloth: charcoal grey flannel with a discreet herringbone pattern in white. Some metres away the pattern is not seen, but only when you are at some two metres from it. May this cloth be used for making a formal suit?
Hi Juan,
That sounds like it would make a nice suit, yes. Whether it’s smart enough for your office depends on what other people wear really. Does anyone else wear flannel, for instance? Do most wear suits, or only a few?
It’s really your call as to how much this will stick out from others, and how comfortable with that you are
S
Hi Simon,
Hope you don’t mind me asking this, on an old “thread”?
I recently bought my first pair of flannel trousers (VBC, ash grey, 12 oz/360g) and am having a pair of trousers made from Abraham Moon Lambswool Plain Weave bunch, in blue. I will wear these with knitwear, either chunky (e.g a shawl collar cardigan,heavy cre neck) or finer (cashmere, merino). No jackets.
I’d like to buy a simple white shirt that would suit these materials. Their texture seems too heavy for a smooth Poplin yet they aren’t Jeans/Chinos so seem too smart for an Oxford. Which weave would you recommend?
Cheers
Graham
I’d still go for an oxford to be honest Graham. Particularly as there is a big difference between the oxfords sold by tailoring companies, or made up by shirtmakers, and the rougher more casual oxfords offered by heritage makers or the Permanent Style ones.
Oxford is just a weave after all, and there are lots of other variables. I’d pick a smart one or a casual one, depending on the look you want.
Many thanks for taking the time to reply Simon, much appreciated.
Graham
Not sure ill get a reply since this post is so old… Anybody has any experience with Standeven’s Oxbridge Flannel Bunch? If so how do you find it as a cloth?
I see all comments Noel, new or old, but I’m afraid I can’t help as I haven’t used that bunch. Sorry
Hello Simon,
Thanks for posting this guide – it’s truly excellent.
I’ve also read your wedding style guide with interest and was wondering what your thoughts are on grey flannel for an Autumn wedding?
I am the groom. The wedding is on a working farm in a slightly colder part of Australia with an afternoon ceremony in the garden. The bride’s dress is slightly bohemian (I’m told).
I think that sounds lovely Michael. Smart and formal, like the greys shown in the wedding guide, but not business-y. Wear it with a crisp white shirt and perhaps a grey tie too. Leave the colour for a flower in the buttonhole
Dear Simon
Do you think the double breasted jacket on Mr. Cordeaux here would work alone as a sport coat?
Thank you!
Hey,
The colour and pattern would certainly work well. I’d only be concerned about whether the material were too smooth. Generally I don’t recommend flannels for jackets for that reason, but it might still be OK, I’d just want to see the texture in person to be sure.
Thanks
Hi Simon,
How happy are you with the flannel cloth on your Edward Sexton DB? I think you mentioned it’s from the Smith’s luxury flannels bunch (SW2546?). Looking at these, they’re mostly 11oz which I guess is borderline acceptable weight.
Essentially, I’m looking for something nice to make a pair flannel trousers with but I am focussed on getting something that’s a bit of a colder, more blueish tone of grey (at least colder when compared to Fox 13oz). I don’t think I’ve been able to find anything that fits the bill that is also woven in the UK. I’d be really grateful for any recommendations you might have and if you think that Smith’s one fits the bill.
I’d certainly recommend the Smith’s one, it has done me well. Although I don’t know where it’s woven.
My favourite is the Fox, but as you say it has a slightly different cast.
Lovely article. I do have a question of the proper sock material to pair with flannel trousers. It seems that thicker material should be used to complement the flannel material. I know there are no real hard and fast rules, but what would the best be in your opinion.
I don’t think I necessarily agree on complementing the flannel with an equally thick material to be honest. Cotton is fine. But if you do want to do so, and you like it for warmth, then go for wool. It has a little more texture.
Looking at a casual checked Pattern 17-18oz Flannel from Fox Brothers for a Sports Coat but that seems like it might be hard to pull off casually? Assuming I can make it work, what would be a good pants fabric option to combine with a Flannel Sports coat?
That is very loud John, yes it would be hard to pull off. Or perhaps more importantly, hard not to be memorable, and escape being noticed for wearing the same one every time you wear it
Simon,
Thanks for the quick reply. That being said, if I’m okay with this being a very occasional jacket, any suggestions on pants material to pair along with a flannel jacket? Was thinking a cream twill material might work? Something with some texture to contrast?
Yes, cream or mid-grey would be fine, either in flannel or more of a harder twill like whipcord or cav twill
Hi Simon,
My tailor is currently working on 2 bespoke flannel three-piece suits in navy and grey, with patterns and styling accurate to 1917.
The flannel is from Harrison’s Burley (hence English flannel), however, it is 11-12 oz.
The suits are almost ready and now I’m rather concerned about how long and well they’ll last. I went bespoke for many reasons, one of them being the thought that my suits will serve me for years to come.
Are there things to do in order to help the garments maintain their shape and beauty as time goes by?
Thanks
11-12oz isn’t too bad Matias, I think you’ll be fine if you look after them well. And that’s the main thing – good care. Have a look at the Alterations and Care section of the website for articles on that
Oh, and if you’re concerned, maybe buy a length of each flannel too, enough to make another pair of trousers at some point
I have my eye on a beautiful pair of Rota flannel pants in a Light Brown/Grey tone, but the weight is 270 grams (9.5 ounces) struck even me, a novice, as too light in weight. What would the purpose for this be? Perhaps for spring wear, if you can even do such a thing?
I think more for Italians that want flannel but live somewhere where it’s really too warm for it. I’d avoid them
Thank you!
What would be your lower bound for flannel weight in grams per square meter?
Thank you!!
11oz probably
That would be 370 gram?
I think it converts to more like 310g?
One small question. What’s the best way to take out a crease out of flannel safely?
Iron it – just use a lower heat, or to be completely safe, put a tea towel/cloth between the iron and the material
Great
Many thanks
Lindsay
Hi Simon, do you think the trousers below in the photo are worsted or woollen flannels? Although I am unsure whether the photo below would help.
Many thanks,
Jack
They’re definitely not woollen flannel, Jack. They barely look like flannel at all
Thanks, does it look like worsted wool?
Yes more like that
Aha, would you not recommend wearing these trousers with a sports jacket?
They might be fine with a sports jacket, as a high-twist might be. But it’s really really hard to judge from a small picture like that Jack.
Hi Simon, I was wondering if you think the cloth from the photo I have attached below looks like flannel?
Also, whether or not it is, do you think it could be worn as a separate?
Many thanks,
Jack
It’s really hard to tell Jack – it looks a bit like a jersey perhaps. Is it quite stretchy?
No, it is not stretchy, but it is pretty rough.
Hmm, it’s unlikely to be flannel then, that’s pretty smooth. But sorry Jack, it’s not really possible to give advice like that from these pictures of a cloth I don’t know
Thanks, Simon. I have noticed the cloth is a bit hairy too and has a composition of 100% wool. Therefore, so far, I can only think of tweed. Do you think this could be a good guess?
Again Jack, I really can’t say remotely, sorry. Also, always keep in mind that there aren’t clear categories for everything. It might not be a tweed or a flannel or jersey, just a wool finished in a slightly different way
Hi Simon,
Just want to send a note of thanks. Got a pair of trousers made in medium grey fox flannel. Fantastic. I didn’t expect quite how thick they would be but they’re great. Thank you for the excellent recommendation.
Amazing, so pleased Simon
Simon, there is a great deal of content on the site about wearing flannel trousers as separates but I can’t find anything about wearing flannel jackets with odd trousers, such as smart jeans or chinos. Is that because you wouldn’t recommend it or is there scope for a style piece on the topic? Many thanks.
It’s because I wouldn’t recommend it Paul. Most flannels are woven for suits or trousers, not jackets
Thank you for replying on an older article, Simon. That does make sense, but I wonder it patch pockets would make a difference? Probably not and I’m sure you are entirely correct, but I also feel strangely compelled to experiment!
Feel free to experiment, just keep in mind that you can’t change the pockets later (unlike turn-ups for example) which is one reason I often err on the safe side
Anyone have any experience with worstel wool flannel suits made from Oxxford suits? I live in the high desert part of Idaho so summers reach low 100s in the summer. I aso tend to run hot (I have a suit that’s mostly wool and a bit polyester and lined with rayon though). Would anyone recommend worsted wool flannel in the summer?
Another interesting option is worsted/woollen flannel mixes (the weft or warp is woollen and the other worsted), for example, Standeven’s Oxbridge. Its look is very close to a poor woollen flannel, it drapes better and it’s stronger. It does feel a bit dryer and less soft though. Have you seen any such flannel, Simon?
I haven’t Noel, no. But I’d rather have all the qualities of pure woollen
Hi Simon, I’m about to order a pair of flannel trousers (Berg & Berg), and wondering if you have any advice on colour. I’m planning to wear them casually, likely with knitwear and loafers, maybe a polo in the warmer months. Options are mid-grey, charcoal and sand (slightly more brown than cream). I’m leaning to the sand. For some reason I’m always drawn to lighter trousers. I’ve got a mid grey turtleneck that I think would work, as well as white and mid grey shirts. I’m hoping to push them as far as I can into casual territory. Both my work and leisure setting are very casual so flannel will be more formal than most for these environments. The grey flannel seems more formal to me. But in the back of my mind I have your advice about how versatile mid grey is. Would love it if you could weigh in. Thanks in advance for any thoughts or considerations!
I’d stick with mid-grey to be honest. Sand is a tough material in flannel, not as versatile. If you wanted sand I’d get a different material, like a cotton
Thank you Simon. Could you elaborate on the reasons that something in cotton might be better for Sand?
Primarily it’s because I’ve had sand flannels in the past and never seemed to wear them! The material and colour never seemed to sit as well together
Thanks Simon, really appreciate the insights. Ended up going with the grey. As much as I would love to be that chic guy in light trousers and a white shirt, I think you’re right that the grey will be much more wearable. Ultimately chic too I’m hoping. Thanks for the support.
No worries Lucas, let me know how you get on
Hi Simon, I love your suit cloth series. However, I would like your recommendations on your favorite flannel bunches like you did with the high-twist, linen, and tweed bunches.
Thank you Tom. I see that, but really it’s very simple: Fox!
Simon,
I love flannel, as I am sure many other PS followers do as well. But do not ever wear a flannel jacket with odd trousers because I don’t think it looks correct (you’ve commented on that too). However- I love the color options in the Fox Brothers 1772 bunch and right now I’m looking to have a cashmere jacket made. In your opinion, would this bunch of cashmere/merino make a jacket that looks and has a handle closer to traditional cashmere (and therefore well suited to pairing with woolen flannels), or more like their trademark “flannel”? It is very expensive fabric and I would hate to have it made and then not be able to pair it with woolen flannel trousers. I also cannot figure out what the blend in that bunch is- 95/5, 85/15, etc. But not sure if that really matters here if the look and handle are appropriate. I’ve held the swatches and “think” it will work but then again I am biased here because I really want to use the fabric for something.
I’d say it would be more close to trousers myself, rather than a jacket. At the least, not a risk worth taking on something so expensive I’d say, if you can’t see it made up somewhere
Simon, do you think a 18oz / 500 gm flannel for cold to very cold winters is appropriate? thanks
It would be very substantial, and I’d worry a little if you’re not used to wearing heavier fabrics, but it could also be very cool. For trousers or for a suit?
Definitely used to wearing heavy fabrics when the winters are at their cold, wet and windiest. I’ve decided to commission some odd trousers at this weight in a light grey. Will report back and confirm whether they can stand up on their own or not.
Thank you, again.
Nice, look forward to hearing the feedback.
Presumably not in that style? Looks kind of dandy to me
Yes, something much more typical.
Nice
Simon,
My Fox flannel trousers (370/400g) are working out great – perfect for my office environment year round.
Fox is offering Silver Screen Collection flannel at 500/530g weight. Is this weight impractical for trousers?
Best,
Robert
You can have it in trousers, and I have had it in the past, but to be honest I would probably avoid it unless you’re sure you like heavier weights like that.
In that case Fox also offers “1772” flannel which is 400/430g (14/15 oz). Is this the heaviest weight which is practical for a chilly air conditioned office?
That would be fine, yes, though the 1772 has some cashmere in it which I would necessarily want
Simon,
Did you mean to convey that you would NOT necessarily want the Fox 1772 flannel for trousers because of the inclusion of cashmere? If yes, is that due to bagging or more quickly wearing out?
The bagging, or not holding a crease so long
Simon,
To sum up all the above information… If only 5 flannel trouser colors (e.g. Fox 13 oz) you would advise:
Mid-Grey
Charcoal
Pale Grey
Char-Brown
Dark Olive
Not making the top five in flannel trouser colors would be light browns to include cream, sand or camel. Neither Navy or any shade of blue.
Am I correct in these assumptions?
Best,
Robert
Hey Robert,
I might put pale grey at the bottom of that list myself these days, but this is a minor change. Also bear in mind that any kind of guide like this to assembling a wardrobe makes assumptions and assume averages. So if navy were to make it in there at the expense of olive, for example, it wouldn’t be unusual. Consider the reasons for the inclusions and whether they apply to you
Hi, Simon. I’m really pleased with how these turned out. Despite being approx 500g they don’t run nearly as hot as I thought they would. It’s currently a typical autumn here and they’re more than fine indoors. They’re very comfortable and carry a wonderful drape and crease. That being said, they are quite heavy as you’d expect so I did opt to have them cut for braces. When I finish putting the buttons in and wear them at my natural waist it should clean up the trouser break a bit. Overall, I expect this to be a very versatile, hard-wearing item and I don’t think people should be afraid of trying heavier flannels. Cheers.
Nice, thanks for sharing Sam. I can see them being nice with something simple like a navy knit as well
Amazing and Congratulations! I have similar ones from Fox Classic Flannel. May I kindly ask which bunch those are from?
BR!
The Heritage Flannel, HF9
Why are some 11oz + English and Scottish flannels softer, and some hairier/rougher? Do you usually go for the hairier flannel, and if so, why?
Are you talking about worsted and woollen flannels by any chance? Normal flannel is woollen, but the smoother ones you’re looking at may be worsted?
I’m talking about 100% woollen flannels. Some seem to be much rougher and less smooth than others! Why is that?
Ok, so there it’s about the yarn that’s chosen primarily. Some use coarser yarn to give a slightly more textured or tweedy surface, and often to make them harder wearing.