Of all the tailoring we have looked at it in this Tailor Styles series, this suit has to be the most dramatic and stylised.
The lapels are big. Not just wide but rounded, ending with peaks high up the shoulder.
The jacket is long, something accentuated by the single waist button and by its high placement.
And the style details, though more subtle, are still unusual. A Milanese buttonhole on the lapel; long pocket flaps; lapped seams on the centre back, sleeves and trousers.
It’s a navy suit, but not as you know it.
House: Chittleborough & Morgan
Address: 12 Savile Row, London
Site: www.chittleboroughandmorgan.co.uk
Cutter: Joe Morgan
Price of suit (at time of writing): £5000 (incl VAT)
The suit was cut for me by Joe Morgan of Chittleborough & Morgan in 2013. We covered the process in five posts, which you can see here.
Joe was a cutter under Edward Sexton with Tommy Nutter back in the 1960s and 1970s, and the style points largely derive from that period.
Certainly the length of the jacket and lapels are similar, though the trousers would have been rather different, with rather more flare and without the turn-ups. And the styling additions such as the Milanese buttonhole are more recent additions.
(Some credit for those should go to Michael Browne, who was also involved with this suit at Chittleborough & Morgan but has now set up on his own on Berkeley Square, cutting a very similar style.)
One aspect of the suit that is not immediately obvious from the images is the padding and structure.
The jacket has the most shoulder padding of any in this series, with only Edward Sexton coming close out of all the 30+ others. It is quite thin at the neck, but gets thicker towards the sleeve, and there is strong rolling at the top of the sleevehead.
That squares up my shoulders, giving perhaps a stronger overall impression, and adds to its overall drama.
Interestingly, however, the shoulders are cut quite narrow.
This is one aspect of the style I might change, perhaps. The width is 5½ inches, compared to 6½ from Huntsman and 7 from Anderson & Sheppard.
This reduces the effect of that padding and, I think, probably exaggerates the lapels still more, as they are larger proportionately without bigger shoulders and chest behind them.
The jacket is actually not as long as some others from the English tailors, at 32 inches compared to between 31½ and 33 inches among those.
But Joe does like a long skirt on a jacket, and cuts the waist quite high.
So although the buttoning point is 19 inches from the neck point (higher than Anderson & Sheppard but lower than Huntsman) the suppression of the waist is just above it, right under the ribs.
This high waist has a few advantages, particularly when it comes to my hollow back and prominent seat: by placing that waist quite high, there is lots of material below it get out and over my bottom, creating a particularly clean finish.
On the front of the jacket, though, it might be more flattering to have the buttoning point a tad lower – and it would be interesting to see how that looked within the same overall cut.
Another reason for the clean look, by the way, is the cloth, which is a 13oz navy twill from Dugdale’s.
Thirteen ounces is relatively heavy anyway, but in a twill it has particularly great body, and drapes really well.
It’s also been popular since I had the suit made: even five years later, both Joe and Michael had suits from customers hanging up in the same material when I visited them recently.
Elsewhere, the jacket fits close through the chest and the waist, and the quarters run dead straight down from the waist button, just curving away subtly at the end.
The sleeve is relatively slim, the vents very high (12½ inches), and the lines accentuated by those lapped seams.
It is referred to as quite a sexy cut – which normally means a little dramatic and close fitting.
The turn-ups, by the way, are also large: 2½ inches compared to 2 inches on most of my trousers. And that is reflected in the pocket flaps.
The shoes are black whole-cuts from Edward Green. The Newbury in black calf.
The style of this suit and its deep navy mean that it is one of the few pieces I have black buttons on rather than dark brown – because I only wear it with black shoes really.
Indeed, I think that shows something about the kind of suit this is. Something formal, something dramatic, for special occasions and making a statement.
It would be an interesting option for black tie.
The accessories are from Anderson & Sheppard: the tie is a linen glen-check, on plain-blue poplin shirt, with white-linen handkerchief.
The trousers are high waisted and worn with braces. They have quite a slim cut, particularly in the thigh, but without much of a taper.
The suit was also made with a waistcoat, which is not pictured.
Style breakdown
- Shoulder width: 5½ inches
- Shoulder padding: Large
- Sleevehead: Strong roping
- Sleeve: Slim
- Lapel: 4½ inches, very rounded
- Gorge height: 1½ inches (from top of peak)
- Drape: Small
- Outbreast pocket height: 11 inches
- Buttoning point: 19 inches
- Waist suppression: Slim
- Quarters: Closed
- Length: 32 inches
- Back seam: Suppressed
- Vent height: 12½ inches
- Trouser circumference at knee: 21½ inches
- Trouser circumference at cuff: 15½ inches
Photography: Jamie Ferguson @jkf_man
I would only really use C&M for black tie
Gosh hard to see beyond that roping… and the turn-ups. I would have liked to see the same suit without those exaggerations.
The roping like shown here is not the standard on their jackets. They won’t do it unless you ask for it. And even then. E.g. I was suggested not to go for it.
Thanks Burt. Joe always describes it to me as standard, and most pieces have it. But yes, you can certainly have it without
There is hardly any visible roping effect on the very first suit I commissioned with C&M: https://tinyurl.com/ybnxf5wl
and as far as I remember we did not talk about shoulders back then.
So that’s perhaps what a new customer can expect?
However, I can see that all later jackets have some moderate roping, something I like and also expressed to Mr. Morgan subsequently.
When I asked for a good portion of roping (as seen on some of the jackets worn by C&M’s tailors themselves), Mr. Morgan advised against it because “too restricting”.
Really enjoy these more in-depth looks we get with this series. Lovely looking suit. It’s this look that has me trying to get things together in order to a get a Michael Browne suit.
Nice to know Jeff, thanks
Why get it from Michael brown? He charges £10,000 when you can get it from Joe Morgan for half the price. Joe knows what’s what.
No, Michael Browne charges £6,500 (inc VAT)
Hmm, no disrespect meant for Michael, but are there any technical or stylistic superiorities that justify Michael’s substantial premium over CM?
There are certainly some things that are different, largely around finishing and construction, but they aren’t large in the scale of things
Oh, also, Michael actually uses a lot less padding in his jackets, while maintaining a clean, straight line to the shoulder
Thanks Simon, interesting how you mentioned slight differences (I assume you meant slight superiorities) around finishing. I always thought C&M was already the UK industry leader in finishing and decorative works…
Jeff (and others), go for Michael Browne, you won’t regret it. I got a suit from him last winter and now a few months and 20 wears later it still puts me on cloud 9 to wear it. It was a lot more than I had previously paid for a suit, but it is a different level of craftsmanship. And he is passionate and authentic about his product to a degree that I’ve never encountered elsewhere. Incidentally, I prefer a lower button stance and more open quarters than he or C&M typically does and he was happy to do that.
Fantastic, dramatic suit. I like the contrast that the color is formal but the cut brings it alive. A really useful series as the studio light allows us to see more of the details. On the side profile the suit doesn’t look like it flatters slightly rounded shoulders (I suffer from this, although am doing my best to remediate it!) and the waist supression looks quite agressive which I assume is in line with the house style?
Yes, it is
Show us the waistcoat!
I’m guessing the heavy roping, lapels and single button jacket combine to make this a suit that is a little too outlandish for a corporate business environment? I ask because the suit I commissioned for my wedding shares these features (different cloth (navy fresco) and cutter to this suit, however – in addition to being a three-piece), and haven’t used it for business very much as it stands out a bit too much. The trousers and waistcoat make for useful smart summer attire, however.
Yes, it does really
Simon, what Edward Green last are those shoes?
915
It would work if made as a black tie, with nice silk facings, and in a midnight blue mohair. But the you’d need to ditch the PTU’s.
Otherwise, in a period stage play. But not as a serious lounge suit.
Of course you can wear them as a lounge suit. For most people, it’s just a grey or navy suit. “Because it’s a serious suit, we will add the raised lapped seams.”, I recall Joe saying. If you do not want them, they’ll not put them on. And you can get a notch lapel if you wish. These style elements are only noticed by very few people, really. The overall impression is so more powerful than with any of my other suits though.
Simon, are all your EG shoes made on the 915 last or do you have any on the 82 or 202?
I have a big range – I was a big fan of the old 888, for example, and I have boots and cordovan on the 202
Fantastic suit, certainly close to TF Windsor cut and details.
-I love the lapped seams in the back. And the long vents (are they flared or parallele?).
– I generally like narrow shoulders but here as a result, one sees your own shoulders in the sleeveheads.
– you may benefit from more open
quarters, as in the (semi) profile pics it would parallele the vents. I like straight quarter lines though.
– some do not like the rope but I think it would gel better with the proper shoulder width; here it does somewhat look pinched above the sleeves.
– Do narrow shoulders allow for less thick a padding at the end?
– Michael Browne shoulders look too stiff.
The vents are not flared, no. And no, you can have thick padding with narrower shoulders
Are you planning to review your Italian suits?
Yep, we’re just working our way south….
Hi Simon, I have a few questions regarding the care and durability of handmade shirts (e.g. Borrelli).
Firstly, with respect to care, will these shirts stand up to machine washing and/or commercial laundry? I have had my inexpensive Charles Tyrwhitt and Brooks Brothers shirts professionally laundered for 5+ years and have never had so much as a button come off, but I am concerned that the less secure hand stitching won’t stand up to this sort of cleaning over time.
Secondly, how common is it to pop stitches or otherwise have seams unravel in the course of normal wear? Again, I’ve never had this happen on my machine made shirts, but already one of the minor seams (specifically, the hand stitching securing the bottom of the placket on the inside) on my month-old Borrelli shirts has come undone. More than that, I like my shirts fairly fitted and I worry that something as mundane as giving someone a hug would be sufficient strain to pop the delicate hand stitching at the sleeve head / armhole.
Thanks as always for your advice.
Hey David.
Would you mind leaving this comment on a shirt-related post?
Thanks
Thanks Simon. I copied this question to the most recent 100 Hands post.
A lovely suit! I would prefer the shoulders to be more extended, but that is of course a matter of style. It is perhaps not a ‘business’ suit (whatever that is), but a lovely cocktail/occasion suit
In many regards I regard this suit as a work of art but what sets it apart from wearability is undoubtedly the roped shoulders.
When I imagine it with a natural shoulder line, a two button jacket. Trousers without suspenders and 2” turnups it could represent sartorial nirvana.
My question to Simon is does he think these adjustments would work and would Joe be amenable to such changes ?
I think they could work, yes, and Joe would do less roping, two-button, trousers with suspenders and the 2 inch turn-up. If you mean a natural shoulder line as in a lot less padding, then that might be harder
A very dramatic cut, as you point out. Almost semi-formal.
From an aesthetic point of view, I don’t like the way the roping sticks out so high above the rest of the shoulder. It is quite jarring and really breaks up the shoulder line. But otherwise, it’s a beautiful suit.
This is one of my favourite suits you have. I agree that the shoulders are too narrow, and that’s affecting the sleeve drape. They don’t need a lot more width; I think 6 inches would do it. But I love the roping! The button an inch lower I think would help, along with also lowering the pockets.
On the vaguely related topic of peaked lapels, I recently got my suit back from its first time at the dry cleaners and it’s developed some rather unfortunate rippling in the lapels. Is there any good way to deal with this, or am I stuck with it?
It sounds like fusing coming away, I’m afraid, which you’re stuck with. It happens with cheaper fusings, usually when they get wet
Thanks. A little disappointing, to say the least, given that it’s a Gieves and Hawkes suit (albeit RTW).
So perhaps it is a good lesson in the fact that a big name doesn’t equate at all to quality.
RTW sold by a big name, at a relatively high price, made in bulk with industrial technique to people who assume they were getting a premium product.
Caveat emptor.
Sadly, it is (was) my nicest suit. I have wandered into the likes of TM Lewin on more than one occasion and been told “That’s a nice suit…. I assume it’s not one of ours!”.
In 2012 you wrote a piece where you make it pretty clear you didnt like peak lapels on SB suits, yet you commissioned this in 2013.
I appreciate you are still quite early in your journey to learn about style, but this seems a bit of a contradiction.
Good point. I did so here because I was so interested in their style, and peaked lapels felt like part and parcel of it. Also, peak lapels are the least of the points that make this dramatic and unusual
How can the lapels be the least dramatic and unusual aspects of this jacket?
They are the focal point of it. They have far greater draw than the shoulders, let alone the anachronistic ticket pocket or daft turnups.
No Tony, the fact they are peaked is the least dramatic
Simon
No, not the fact that they are peaked, but the fact that they are of very dramatic and unusual dimension, which makes them very striking.
Actually, judging from the main picture, the shoulder width being so narrow vs your own shoulders looks to me like a sartorial faux-pas, if not a cock up, to the point that although I love the cut, I am not sure I would wear the suit with the shoulders coming out so tight in the sleeves; you already flagged occasional fit incidents with south italian tailors but here coming from one of the best english tailors (esp one known for his work on shoulders) it is surprising but more importantly not reassuring for anyone tempted by bespoke tailoring. Was the issue not raised at one point (first fitting?) or could it not be corrected (widening the shoulder or letting more fabric in the upper sleeve)? Especially surprising if this was not your first jacket made by C&M.
It was my first, but it wasn’t a mistake. The sleeves are not tight on the arm, the shoulder is just rather narrow
The dramatic roping, lean chest and broad lapels all combine to an effect very similar to my first suit from Cifonelli.
Simon: do you see a similarity between the two as well? I envision my next suit from Cifonelli to have looser sleeves and no roping in the sleevehead – the dramatic look works particularly well for black tie, but I have found it to be a bit much for business wear.
There is some similarities in the proportions, yes, but Cifonelli use a lot less padding and chest canvas, and also cut the chest a little closer
Really enjoy the proportions on the jacket, esp. the long skirt. The stylistic details are too dramatic to my eye: the sweeping lapels and speed bump shoulders look popstaresque. But the cut and padding are just fantastic.
Really liked this when first shown – especially the fit through the back; however the studio shot images reflect a series of features that now seem to distract from the whole. The roping, narrow shoulders, turn ups and button point take away from the shaping and look, on second analysis, overly-mannered. The broad curved-belly lapels are overly broad in proportion to the shoulders and the ticket pocket is almost anachronistic. Ultimately (I know it’s debatable) the suit should make the best of the wearer, appear stylish (not out of vogue) but not be obvious in the intent. I think this suit slightly fails whilst your charcoal Vestrucci ticks all the boxes. To support these articles it would be informative to know how your commissioning decisions played a part in the look and whether (as one would expect) they have matured or at least altered through experience? As such what have you left behind (would not repeat) through this experience (respecting your right to experiment and explore…).
The initial decisions are pretty much always to just have the house style, which is what makes the series rather useful. I try to mention things I would now change in passing, like the shoulders, but can certainly try to do more
…sorry I didn’t mean to be so negative on the critique. Perhaps it is the clear studio images but I was surprised by how the suit looked (on review) particularly against more recent commissions.
i will disagree with (almost) everyone here but i do like the narrow shoulders. given your sloping shoulders, i think it makes your more balanced. it gives you a strong appearance but the heavy shoulder padding is less obvious. i like the cut and this suit in particular for particular occasions, like important dinners or elegant social events.
Wealthy menswear aficionado by day, superhero by night. Add a mask, a dark shirt, and a crested tie, and you have an excellent Batsuit. 🙂
I absolutely love this suit but perhaps only in this cloth or another plain with similar qualities. Checks and stripes with kind of lapel can begin to look messy especially along the lateral border of the lapel. I notice also the manner in which the hind arm of the sleeves and shoulders fit very well. Inspite of the shallow armhole the chest doesn’t break as with the A/S H/P and Huntsman. These details maybe those that would be identified by a geek or professional but at this level should be taken care of on the basis of the trust that exists between the customer and cutter at this level of craft and price point. Other smaller details are how clean the lines of the waist is in both the Sagittal and Coronal plains and inspite of the vertical nature of the lower front edge how they lie flat and don’t peel away from the midline. Along with the Camp Fe Luca (also 13 oz) this a beautiful suit. As far as the more esoteric detail of the suit are concerned I begin to lose patience with obsessing about minor details which suggest that observers are not actually seeing what it is that they are looking at. It is not only a credit to Joe Morgan but also both the coat maker and trouser maker who clearly are right at the top of their game and have paid due diligence during the execution of their work.
It is a very stylish suit but I seem to have liked it more during the original series. The clean back is phenomenal but I do agree the studio photos show the shoulders a bit too narrow and button stance a tad high. If C&M is the epitome of finishing quality on Savile Row, which tailors does Michael Browne use to achieve equal or better finishing after he left C&M?
Well, he brought in a lot of the finishing points himself, such as Milanese buttonholes.
And he does a fair bit of the finishing himself
I suspected as much as I have heard that Michael is known to do a lot of work personally on the suits as he is apparently trained in all aspects of the tailoring…a sign of a true perfectionist, though this limits the number of commissions he can accept.
Interesting, too, I think how much more appealing suits can look in more stylised shoots, and in situ.
A studio is quite unflattering in that respect, but it’s also the most consistent.
Neither are inaccurate.
I do have a question about the clean backs from MB and C&M, cleaner than anything else I have seen. I always thought you needed a bit of extra cloth or drape between the arms and shoulder blades to allow for reaching out or folding the arms without being tight. Do you feel any restricted movement? How do they achieve this, by extra high armholes, higher than other SR houses?
They are a little restrictive, yes. Not a lot, but erring on that side of the balance
If you were going to do another stylish 3 piece (nothing too crazy) among these 3 tailors with similar esthetic…who would you get your next commission, MB, C&M, or Davide Taub at GH?
Davide and the others I’d see as slightly different styles, and would pick on that basis. But out of MB and C&M, I’d be intrigued to try Michael
Hi Simon,
Would you be willing to share with us some body measurements?
Asking this seems a little too invasive, but I think certain measurements would be particularly enlightening and relevant. I ask this, as a beginner, thinking about shoulder measurement (say between your bone over the back); most other content creators always preach the importance of fit (of which i really must applaud your always emphasising style knowing two suit can fit equally well yet differently) but it’s tricky to understand what they mean. So for example, knowing this information might be insightful (i.e. A&S extends x amount beyond the shoulder and gives this impression while CM ends right beforehand causing this).
But I recognise I may be I am looking at this all wrong, I’m aware shoulder padding, drape, lapel width, etc all play a role in the silhouette. I appreciate anyone’s insight into this issue. And thanks Simon for your consideration.
Ignacio
Hi Ignacio,
I think I know what you mean. But it would probably be best to say, as you suggest, that the shoulder extends 1cm, or is back 1cm from the shoulder point, than to give my body measurements.
Broadly, I’m just over 6 foot tall, and would wear something like a 39 inch chest RTW suit. With a 32 inch waist.
I was Loopings for a picture with the waistcoat on but couldn’ find one. I think the marvelous suit is even smarter worn as a three piece.
Should read : I was looking for ..
Damn autocorrections
Could you write a piece about the effect of various pocket flaps on the visual proportions of a suit? I’m talking about slanted vs straight vs double flaps vs patch pockets. How would these various styles suit a tall thin man vs a portly frame, or how they effect men with wide or narrow shoulders/waists? I think you have covered how they differ in formality but I have not noticed much regarding proportions and visual effects. Of course it’s fairly likely I have just not searched deep enough! Cheers!
Hi Jimmy,
Sure – I take it you have read ‘flattering the tall and the short‘ for general info there?
In brief, the more pockets there are and the larger they are, the more they break up the visual impression of a jacket and add bulk. So perhaps less good for a large man. Patch pockets are the worst there, then ticket pockets, then flapped pockets, with simple jetted pockets being the best. Slanted pockets are supposed to add slimness through their angle, but I’m not sure there’s a large effect there
Yes, it’s a very helpful article. My particular issue is I have narrow shoulders and wider hips..
Hi Simon,
Frankly, we are really fortunate to still have around craftsmen in tailoring who could make such an outstanding outfit!
Yet this post, beyond its topic, raises the fundamental issue I would call the Bruce Boyer’s paradoxe. Namely, that we are now living in a world in which the lost of any sense of occasion has become pervasive.
Let’s take this outfit as a litmus test: where could one confidently wear it and really fits into one’s social environment? A black tie? As the first comment and yours seem to suggest? To me, they sound to be a compromise of last resort. Or rather are they a sign of a depleting world in terms of social events for style conscious men?
By the way, the EG wholecut are the rigth choice in this case. Indeed, anything else would be below the level of formality displayed by this suit.
John
John, I own several suits and jackets by C&M and I wear them every-where, that is everywhere a tiny bit of representation/formality is required.
Nobody has ever mentioned the roping or the peak lapels to me. What people comment on is that you’re wearing a tie! With a roll neck, you go totally unnoticed.
Not talking about peacocks here, but men should not be shy. In the end, you define yourself. You can dress down or dress up any outfit. In that respect I find C&M’s suits and jackets more versatile than most people would believe 🙂
I think most people don’t notice the fine details of tailoring the way we do (5 years ago, I probably wouldn’t have noticed a suit had a peak lapel v. a notched lapel, or roped shoulders v. a neapolitan shoulder). So to most of the world, a dark suit is a dark suit, and it won’t matter if it’s a C&M or a neapolitan–for most of the world, it will seem equally formal, which is probably much more formal that whatever they are wearing.
I find Burt’s comment here absolutely spot on. The tie is usually the focal point to the untrained eye, while the sartorial details that we obssess over go almost unnoticed…
I like everything about this suit, with one major exception. Yes, it’s pretty formal, but I’ve never had a problem with that. Being dressed a little more formally than others at an occasion is rarely a problem, in my experience, particularly at business events. Being dressed more informally than others is a little more problematic, I’ve found.
The only thing I really don’t like about this suit is the lapels. For me, they’re too wide. I recognise That the lapels are a key aspect of the design of the suit, but I’m not keen on exaggerated features – trousers that are too wide or too narrow, excessively short jackets, tiny shirt collars or collars that are very long. I don’t think that “moderation in all things” is a bad mantra when it comes to tailoring ( with apologies to St Paul for appropriating his words). Perhaps this suggests a “vanilla” approach to style, a lack of imagination and a sense of adventure. That may be correct, but I think that tailoring that steers clear of exaggerated features is likely to date less quickly and is, inherently, a little more flexible in terms of the situations in which it can be worn. Boring? Perhaps – and this fo m a man whose mid teens were spent in bondage trousers and a God Save the Queen t-shirt!
I’m sure that the suit should look just as good, if not better, with narrower (though not narrow!) lapels.
The roping and lapels have gone too far IMHO.
A tailor might suggest this because he is bored with his quotidian routine.
But you have to wear it.
In Joe’s case, he’s been doing it regularly for almost 50 years!
So it’s a case of “old habits dying hard” aka “hallowed tradition”?
I guess, or just liking the style…
Breathtakingly handsome suit
The fit and balance of the garment is stunning (for 5 grand it should be – ok 4 grand – 20% is VAT / tax) What destroys the whole Vista, sleeve heads (auditioning for the role of Spock?) The oversize pocket flaps and PTU (cuffs, to the non british) Lapels, let’s not go their (your spending 5 K, a suit of this nature should have a good life expectancy – not a costume peice from Hampton Court. )
Finally, 5 K and the guys offer a Dugdale Cloth ! For the price should have been Lessers/Harrison’s
All points taken Harry, but the cloth is absolutely first rate. Dugdales offer a big range of things
Simon,
I think the shoulder padding is effective. It’ｓ incredible, particularly seen from afar – although you might be right, the shoulder could be a touch wider to give an even better impression of strength without being exaggerated.
By the way, did you get spare trousers with this garment? On a related note, how often do you comission those with each suit? I ask, since I am thinking of getting a bespoke suit from Huntsman with similar details – i.e. leaning towards the formal occasion that probably won’t be worn too often, but spare trousers give an extra sense of insurance and security to its longevitiy.
Thanks for your time.
Dan
Hi Dan,
I didn’t get spare trousers here, no, both because it is a heavy cloth that won’t wear out fast, and because it wasn’t a suit I was going to wear very often.
I get spare trousers maybe 20% of the time these days, but if I had fewer suits I would do it far more
Do you think it would be reasonable, instead of commissioning a second pair of trousers, to ask to buy a length of cloth sufficient to get that second pair made in the future? The logic being that it would let one try out the trousers and have adjustments made before the second pair is made. As well, if one’s body, style, or preferences change, those could be incorporated in the future.
My only hesitation is if the jacket’s colour might change through wear, exposure to the sun, and dry cleaning such that it wouldn’t match the newly made trousers.
Yes, that is a good plan. Colour change is an issue, though a small one. I think just aim to have the second pair made in the following year or so
I have wondered for some time whether I could do those wide lapels and strong shoulder and waist details. I feel it could look a bit “dated” on me. Nevertheless, it is very special. Living in the US, I recall fondly being in London on one occasion, and walking by C&M and looking down the stairs to the window below street level, and seeing Joe and Francis working away at their noble craft. I was most impressed by their concentration and the passing on of experience and style sense from one generation to the next.
Hi Simon,
Where is this linen glen plaid tie from?
Anderson & Sheppard
I notice Simon that the sleeves are relatively narrow on C&M jackets around the upper arm. I’ve seem Francis Paley wear especially slim arms. It reminds me of old drawings of morning dress on cutter and tailor. Is this how morning dress and suits were cut before?
On a related note if you want to have the sleeve widened or narrowed is it possible to do sonpn a finished bespoke suit?
No, it’s not an old style as far as I am aware. Just a personal or house style. A&S and other drape cutters are much wider.
And yes to a small extent it should be.
Simon, With the C&M “strong” suit lapels and shoulders, is it incumbent upon the owner to wear large strong very long or very wide collars, and wide ties? It would seem to me that that is so.
Not necessarily. I find fairly standard collars work ok, with only moderate thickness of lining/fusing. Any small collar does get swamped though.
On ties, I would normally wear my standard width (9cm) and that certainly works ok. However, Michael Browne wears very skinny ties with his. It’s more stylised, and might not work for everyone, but it is a good look on him
Hi Simon – hope you’re well. Did these trousers have any back pockets? I don’t think I can see any on the pics? I’m having some fish tail trousers made and thought the absence of back pockets is best (smoother line), and so wanted to check to see what you thought? Thanks.
No they didn’t. I think in retrospect it might have looked better (not so dressy, perhaps not so feminine) with one pocket, but I’m not entirely sure
Thanks Simon, appreciate the swift response. I see where you’re coming from, but given I wouldn’t wear the trousers without the jacket I don’t think anybody would ever see it/know other than me. But always nice to understand all of the options. BTW, I LOVE the PS Bridge coat. A classic.
Good point, yes.
And thanks, really pleased. Just dropped the current stock all off in the pop-up. So nice to see it all hanging
Hi Simon,
Have you considered trying one of those MTM suits where you measure yourself and submit the measurements?
I’ve seen some nice MTM models by Lanieri.
No, I’ve seen some pretty awful results. Also at the most such systems will only be as good as low-level MTM. Any high-level MTM and bespoke depends more on fittings than measurements.
Dear Simon
Which of your two suits is the more comfortable to wear, Chittleborough and Morgan or Cifonelli?
Regards
Gohar
There’s not much difference on comfort really
Hi Simon–Could you please share the cloth number for the Dugdale’s navy twill?
It must be the 4216.
You’ll find it in the White Rose Caldonaire book:
http://www.dugdalebros.com/the-white-rose-caldonaire/product/4216-navy-blue-cavalry-twill/colour/navy_blue_cavalry_twill/page/145/
Hello Simon,
First of all, I really enjoy your Style Breakdown series. I get to see what the suits actually look like on an average person, not models. Also, information about the price is very helpful as well. Since you already did a review on C&M suit I would like to ask a few things about C&M if you don’t mind.
1) The suit looks great, very sharp as expected of C&M house style. Please don’t get me wrong, but there are clearly some problems with the sleeve heads, I think people call it the ‘shoulder divots’, it’s like dents in your shoulder areas. What do you think about that? Is it because of how you stand at the time of shooting or it has been there since the beginning?
2) Since you have commissioned suits from both C&M and Edward Sexton. Do you notice anything differences in their style? Or is it essentially the same? And how about the craftsmanship, between the two houses, who do you think focus more on the quality of the suit? Overall, if money is not a problem and you can only pick one, which one would you choose. between C&M and Edward Sexton.
Thank you Simon,
W
No problem.
1) It’s really about the stance and just not trying to show a perfect fit in these pictures. You can see that doesn’t really exist in the original images covering the suit’s make, here.
2) The styles are similar, but I’d say Chittleborough has a tendency to slightly more extreme shapes and padding, and also finishing like Milanese buttonholes. I’d pick between them based on which styles I’d seen and liked the most.
Hope that’s helpful
Simon, From the photos , it looks like the buttons are matt black. Is this case? When commissioning a navy suit with black buttons, what would be your default? Matt or shiny?
I always prefer matte horn buttons. It’s the default on Savile Row, where shine is the default in Italy.
I like the fact that matte isn’t really used by high-street or other RTW brands.
Even when the buttons are black?
Yes. Perhaps, even especially when they are black (though mine were navy). Black shiny buttons could look very cheap.
For a formal navy suit such as thing one, to be worn with black shoes, are navy buttons or black buttons more common? Or is the difference not really an issue?
I think the latter to be honest. Given the darkness of navy horn, it will look pretty much the same.
Having navy would perhaps make it a tiny bit easier to wear with dark brown shoes if you ever wanted to
I personally find this style a little over-the-top, though it does have its charm. As someone that has only recently become interested in menswear, I have to say most would hardly notice the cut the way an aficionado does. I highly doubt you encounter any issues if you wore it as a business suit.
I really admire Joe Morgan for sticking to this style nearly fifty years on from Tomy Nutter’s heyday. He must really cherish his craft.
Do you think 13oz twill will be too warm for hot weather (20-28 degree)?
I’m interesting in Holland and sherry classic worsted 13oz solid dark brown, but just considering the weather, I don’t want to have a suit that can only wearable for 1 season(especially Hong Kong winter is not that cold)
It depends on how you deal with heavier cloths as a person, and how much you’re indoors, but no I’d say that if you want something to wear a lot of the year in Hong Kong, you should look more at 11oz
I agree with you, and i will have a look on some 11oz cloth, properly high twist bunches
Beside, i like this navy twill suit a lot, it look very elegant!!
Thank you Stanley
Simon what’s the difference between this from c&m and what nutters did on say mick jaggers wedding suit? From my eye it appears that sexton back then cut the front edge of the skirt straight down rather than with a flare. The lapel was even more flamboyant. Any other differences you can tell? Very geeky question I realise)
I haven’t looked in detail at the Jagger suit or, more importantly, asked Edward about it I’m afraid
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/386957792961012940/
This is the best angle for looking at it Simon. It seems that all the Nutters offshoots have made some changes since those days and you’ve got several related variants which have emerged from those days. I just love the design although Im not sure how wearable it would be these days) Do you think I should commission something similar? Or is this a crazy whim which I will later regret?
Ps there is someone else calling themselves ‘Rupesh’ writing comments on your blog to which Im getting email responses to! Not sure what is going on?
I think you should only do so if you want something that’s really an exceptional, show piece, not part of your regular wardrobe, a real indulgence.
Rupesh is someone different, though not sure why you’re getting email responses
Thanks Simon, appreciate the honest advice. Ive found this in bespoke commissions in the past, what I really like from an aesthetic standpoint isn’t necessarily that practical in my day to day life as a regular guy living in the UK. Perhaps this is something to have down the line for a bit of fun and maybe for the occasional party.
Ok noted on receipt of emails from this other poster! Thanks.
Hi Simon,
you pointed out that the turn-ups width of 2 and 1/2 inches is also echoed in the pocket flaps. What about the trousers waistband – is it also as large? I’m thinking of separate bespoke trousers with the same large turn-ups and such a large waistband could be a nice stylistic touch (with side adjusters, of course, no belt).
Thank you very much.
John
No, it’s not as large, and I wouldn’t worry so much about that reflecting the style of the pocket flaps.
I would also suggest you think twice about having such a wide waistband. I liked them a lot at one stage, but they seem rather gimmicky now.
Is the fabric from dugdale a three-season? Is it Bunch 138 English & Town Classics or Bunch 160 Royal Classic Vantage?
No, it’s heavy and I’d say it would struggle in anything like warm weather.
I can check the bunch if you’re still interested.
What confuses me a bit is that the conversion from oz to grams is different among the various mills. When you say 13oz is a three-season weight in England, what grams do you refer to? 400g? Or less? At H&S, 13oz is equivalent to 400g in their Classic Worsteds Bunch which once recommended as a good three seasonal. At Dugdale, 13-14oz is 370-400g, like your suit here, which seems to be for winter.
It’s the same with other weights. For some, 340g equals 12oz, for others 11oz. For some, 9oz equals 260g, for others 280g.
If you could give me some guidance on this, that would be great.
To be honest, if you’re only talking about 20g or 30g, as here, then it’s really not worth worrying about. It’s an unnoticeable difference. That’s why mills are happy putting 13-14, for instance. There are small variations, and one ounce doesn’t make enough difference to matter.
The dugdales twill seems to have good drape, a bit of lustre and some texture in the weave. Would you consider it to make a dinner suit Simon, or it it a bit coarse for that?
I think it would have a bit too much of a suit-like texture
Simon, I’d like to ask few particular and general questions about the finishing of this suit.
Are all buttonholes Milanese? You mention only the one on the lapel, but pictures around the website suggest that all buttonholes are.
If I get it right, buttonholes can be double-sided, that means “nice” from both sides (e. g. on your Sexton coat). Are they also double-sided on this suit (not sure it can be done with Milanese ones)?
If I understand it right, lapped seams on this suit are “loose”, that means “open” from one side – the difference between lapped and raised seam in this “open” variant is then only in the width of overlap of cloth, is it right? And on this suit, the jacket’s seams have just smaller overlap than trousers’ ones?
Thanks a lot!
John
Sure John, happy to help.
– No, all the buttonholes are not Milanese. It’s not generally a good idea to do any working buttonholes as Milanese, as using them distorts the line of the raised stitching. So usually it’s just the label buttonhole.
– Yes they can, but usually this is only done on buttonholes that will potentially be seen from both sides. So the top one on a coat or jacket that rolls open, for instance. So it is not done on this suit, no.
– I’m afraid I don’t know what you are referring to in regards to loose or open lapped seams. This is not terminology I’ve heard used. Perhaps an image there would help?
– On this suit, the lapped seams on the jacket and on the trousers overlap by the same amount.
Simon, here’s the source of “open lapped seam” terminology: https://alanflusser.com/product-profiles/lapped-seams
And here is a good image: https://www.permanentstyle.com/2017/02/signor-francesco-bespoke-tailor-toronto.html#&gid=1&pid=5. The side lapped seams I would call open as they “stick out”. The center seam, on the other hand, clinges to the cloth (and resembles in that matter the lapped seams on jeans).
So, on this C&M suit, all lapped seams are proper, e. g. 5 mm of overlap, then? Not what you’d call just raised seams (1 or 2 mm overlap)? (Lapped vs. raised seam is terminology you used before and it confuses me a bit.)
Thanks again!
John
OK, understood John. When I refer to lapped seams, then, I mean open lapped seams (in the various places around this site I’ve mentioned it).
So when I mention them on this suit, yes they have that amount of overlap.
Hi Simon,
I wanted to start out by saying Happy Holidays to you and your family. I was wondering how the formality of this suit would change if it was designed with a notch lapel rather than a peak lapel.
Thank you in advance and thank you for answering all my questions.
Thank you Kyle, and the same to you and yours.
To be honest, I don’t think it would change this suit that much, because the style is already so dramatic. The size and shape of the lapels makes more of a difference here than whether they are peaked or notched.
Hi Simon,
For a suit like this, do you think a grenadine tie would be appropriate with this or would a more formal tie be the only option to pair with this suit?
No, a grenadine would be fine
Hi Simon, what is the code, name and collection of the fabric at Dugdale? Thank you
Hi,
I’m afraid cloths like are removed or change their codes every 2-3 years, so this one will be far out of date. The best thing to do is ask Dugdale what three-ply twills like this they currently have.
Thank you, is the colour a navy or dark blue or midnight? And would I be able to get the same effect/style from a 12oz or 14 oz and also a 2-ply?
I’d describe it as dark navy – the proper, menswear navy.
You could get the same style from those, yes, definitely. I wouldn’t say the material, lovely though it is, is crucial to the C&M look
Thanks, I wanted to use the fabric on a G&H MTM suit. And also with a ticket pocket
Hi Simon,
The cloth is lovely and drapes beautifully. I am strongly considering a similar cloth in Charcoal from Fox’s Worsted Classics as an alternative to a classic grey flannel suit.
In regards to warmth, how does something like this twill weave compare to a flannel like your Edward Sexton DB?
Best,
P
Thanks Phong. I’d say they’re pretty similar